shouldn't moslem versus christian actually be moslem versus secular?

as most of us in western countries are not christian except for a baptism long time ago shouldnt we be comparing moslem ways to secular ways?

the moslems on this board try so hard to describe how things are similarly sexist for females in christian homes etc

I say that is not relevant at all to the way most of us live

this is true that the old testament did have rules that are similar to those that are part of islam because islam claims that its roots are the old testament bible

but all the laws we have and the rules of social conduct, are not set by what is in the old testament

the new testament is something some people live by if they want to be christians but most of us are only christian for census purposes and it has little to do with anything else in our lives

so moslems please stop telling us that we have the same sexist laws as islam because it is in the bibile. We are secular and our laws are secular.

en.wikipedia.org...

that link gives the information that about 68% of people claim to be christian but in actual fact a lot more people claim to be christian than who actually live as christians - as in, attend church on sundays

www.ncls.org.au...

this link suggests that only 8% of the population actually go to church - the rest of us only put religion down on census questions and then ignore it till xmas when we all go crazy spending lots of money on presents and food and forget to go to church.most of us never ever go to church unless someone is getting baptised or married or buried.

we are a very secular society I am afraid so dont compare us all as christians even though that is in our background.

Re Megabyte


In the context of another thread, where I presented opinions (on the subject of active versus passive christianity) similar to yours, I did a bit of personal 'research' into the statistics.

And, maybe not so strange, I found a general vagueness in this area, both on available recent statistics, their credibility and not least on the efforts of 'cosmetic' betterment. Some religionist groups have gone to lengths in fabricating 'statistics' 'proving' that their specific religion is alive and well, even growing, in spite of all pragmatic observations to the contrary.

In this earlier debate a christian referred me to such a statistic, which turned out to be based on christian estimates (with few visible sources whatsoever) of what christianity believes itself to be numerically 2050. There was a lot of arranging the material in such a smokescreened way, that a cursory glance would imply a small christian growth, but a closer scrutiny showed this to be a completely untenable position.

Well knowing that such a extremist-critical attitude as I have, usually ends in 'is/isn't' positions with extremist as opponents, and with red herrings laid out at any step, I went a bit further and tried an evaluation based on my knowledge of the european countries I'm very familar with (and asked european connections I have in some other countries here).

The more neutral statistics I've read seem to be rather correct. In Europe and former Sovjet, the churchgoing ranges from 5% of the polulation in the most secular countries, to 50% in the old christian bastions Poland, Spain and Italy. This seems mirrored in the political manifestions of public voting to the various parlaments. So at least something like 75% of the european population can be counted out from being 'active' christians, meaning app. 500.000.000 (a generous and moderate estimate) europeans being only convenience or nominal christians.

The political christian orientation is clearly on the decline, and in my country the factual, formal membership of christian denominations has gone so much down in 30 years, that the employed priesthood is down to 30-40% of the late seventies.

'Official' statistics would look very different, if such facts were incorporated, but the isolationism of (especially US) extremist christianity would never admit to it, but hang onto their wishful dreams to the bitter end.

So yes, this is secular, and in this vein moslems would be, and actually are, expected to follow secular laws in Europe, just as christians are. But as this has led to some rather ugly cultural confrontations on different levels of society, attitudes are slowly hardening against some moslems believing themselves outside or above secular law (an unfortunate attitude they share with a small amount of extremist christians). We don't have so much hiding our heads in the sand here, so the conflict is tranparent.

My opinions here are, as usual, not directed at the average religionist, who can adapt to liberal society. My criticism is against extremists, who believe they have special rights or privileges, sanctioned by some 'god'.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re Megabyte


In the context of another thread, where I presented opinions (on the subject of active versus passive christianity) similar to yours, I did a bit of personal 'research' into the statistics.

And, maybe not so strange, I found a general vagueness in this area, both on available recent statistics, their credibility and not least on the efforts of 'cosmetic' betterment. Some religionist groups have gone to lengths in fabricating 'statistics' 'proving' that their specific religion is alive and well, even growing, in spite of all pragmatic observations to the contrary.

In this earlier debate a christian referred me to such a statistic, which turned out to be based on christian estimates (with few visible sources whatsoever) of what christianity believes itself to be numerically 2050. There was a lot of arranging the material in such a smokescreened way, that a cursory glance would imply a small christian growth, but a closer scrutiny showed this to be a completely untenable position.

Well knowing that such a extremist-critical attitude as I have, usually ends in 'is/isn't' positions with extremist as opponents, and with red herrings laid out at any step, I went a bit further and tried an evaluation based on my knowledge of the european countries I'm very familar with (and asked european connections I have in some other countries here).

The more neutral statistics I've read seem to be rather correct. In Europe and former Sovjet, the churchgoing ranges from 5% of the polulation in the most secular countries, to 50% in the old christian bastions Poland, Spain and Italy. This seems mirrored in the political manifestions of public voting to the various parlaments. So at least something like 75% of the european population can be counted out from being 'active' christians, meaning app. 500.000.000 (a generous and moderate estimate) europeans being only convenience or nominal christians.

The political christian orientation is clearly on the decline, and in my country the factual, formal membership of christian denominations has gone so much down in 30 years, that the employed priesthood is down to 30-40% of the late seventies.

'Official' statistics would look very different, if such facts were incorporated, but the isolationism of (especially US) extremist christianity would never admit to it, but hang onto their wishful dreams to the bitter end.

So yes, this is secular, and in this vein moslems would be, and actually are, expected to follow secular laws in Europe, just as christians are. But as this has led to some rather ugly cultural confrontations on different levels of society, attitudes are slowly hardening against some moslems believing themselves outside or above secular law (an unfortunate attitude they share with a small amount of extremist christians). We don't have so much hiding our heads in the sand here, so the conflict is tranparent.

My opinions here are, as usual, not directed at the average religionist, who can adapt to liberal society. My criticism is against extremists, who believe they have special rights or privileges, sanctioned by some 'god'.

well put

so as I said - when moslems are trying to justify the way things are done in their countries [such as treatment of women] and say that we too have the same rules etc - they really should not compare what we do in our countries to what is in the bible

reply to post by megabyte


The matter is not about religion at all. It is about the integration of a system of law which goverrns a society that is based completely on a religous text.

In the vast majority of non-muslim nations there is a system of common law that trumps that which is included in any religious text. When a society has a system of common law that supercedes religious doctrine the kind of abuse suffered by women is not sanctioned by the government. In other words, all people have a basic level of rights.

The issue is not Muslim vs. secular or Muslim vs. Christian. The issue is Muslim vs. non-Muslims. Thats the issue because that is what Sharia law demands.

Originally posted by dolphinfan
reply to post by megabyte

 

The matter is not about religion at all. It is about the integration of a system of law which goverrns a society that is based completely on a religous text.

In the vast majority of non-muslim nations there is a system of common law that trumps that which is included in any religious text. When a society has a system of common law that supercedes religious doctrine the kind of abuse suffered by women is not sanctioned by the government. In other words, all people have a basic level of rights.

The issue is not Muslim vs. secular or Muslim vs. Christian. The issue is Muslim vs. non-Muslims. Thats the issue because that is what Sharia law demands.

I agree

I am referring to the many threads on here where moslems are trying to justify the way women are treated in their countires by saying we do it too because it is in the bible

but we have seperation of church and state in our countries and that enables our laws to move with times.

reply to post by megabyte


Nope, Christianity ≠ Secular Society.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


confused about what your point might be - can you let me know please

i was expecting all the moslems to post and tell us how their way to treat women in their societies is superior to the way we treat women in our secular society but I see none of them posted

odd that there are so many posts from the moslems telling us how islam treats women better than what is described in the bible

somehow as soon as we acknowledge that the bible is not the way we live - they have not a word to add

reply to post by megabyte


Christianity and secular free society are not correlated. Secular society came from the age of the enlightenment, consisting of reason, logic and democracy. It's the reason Western societies have become civilised and prosperus.

The american constitution was created to create a "wall of separation" between church and state.

Christianity and Islam offend the human mind at the basic level. They state that we're born sick and need to be commanded well by Yahweh and Allah. It's nonsense and it's the reason why religious states like Iran, Isreal are still blowing each up daily due to religious agendas, inspired by doctrine to go out and kill those "non-believers".

Like Christopher Hitchen says religion poisons everything.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by megabyte

 

Christianity and secular free society are not correlated. Secular society came from the age of the enlightenment, consisting of reason, logic and democracy. It's the reason Western societies have become civilised and prosperus.

The american constitution was created to create a "wall of separation" between church and state.

Christianity and Islam offend the human mind at the basic level. They state that we're born sick and need to be commanded well by Yahweh and Allah. It's nonsense and it's the reason why religious states like Iran, Isreal are still blowing each up daily due to religious agendas, inspired by doctrine to go out and kill those "non-believers".

Like Christopher Hitchen says religion poisons everything.

i agree

more wars have been fought in the name of god or allah or yahweh than in the name of the devil

anyone see the satanists attack christians?

in fact satanists are too busy worshipping the 'greed is good' mantra and not bothering with anything religious

I just expected some moslems to tell us how islam treats women's right better than our secular laws

they were quick enough to compare islam and bible

how about comparing islam to our secula laws instead as that is where we really live

forget ancient books that dont have much relevance to our modern way of life even our christians dont do what is in the bibile about some of the more questionable rules

reply to post by megabyte


I couldn't agree more.