Things you are NOT allowed to invent.

Originally posted by XPLodER

so how does someone approach the right people to ensure an invention is relayed to the opreate branch of goverment if there invention is on that list ?

You don't have to. They do it for you - although by law they're not compelled to do it for you, and they'll make that plain in your first "clearance experience".

if you invented something and wouldnt patent it for fear of national security concens and personal saftey concerns
how does that help anyone?

Again, it's sort of on auto-pilot. You don't have to worry about the national security concerns, it gets taken care of for you - sort of - although like a TSA check, it might not be the most pleasant thing you could imagine. There really isn't any personal safety issue at risk, they're not going to shoot you for it. However, depending on who you are and what you do (or have done) the experience can be fun, irritating, or arduous.

if you invented something on that list and the milatary wanted what protections from them would be avaliable?
what i mean is if its national security once they had the idea what would happen to the individual who invented it?
people have disapaired before after inventing things
is there an agency you can contact without going bye bye?
xploder

Ok. Here's the process in a nutshell.

You decide that you've invented something and you want to patent it. Let's say it's a really nifty way to generate a large burst of neutrons, and your new gizmo can not only do that, but it can do it within a span of maybe 100 nsec, and you can control the timing of the burst within 10 nsec or so. Not only that, it's only the size of a fist, it weighs maybe 1kg, and it's electrically driven.

You file for a patent.

[scenario 1]
xploder is working for an employer which does defense related contracting work. Let's say Pantex. Further, xploder holds a TS/SCI for his work on, let's see...composite suspended pit recycling methods. The patent examiner gets xploder's patent, opens it, and takes a brief look. There's math, references to various scientific pubs, some explicit drawings, it looks like a well-formed patent, written by someone that's skilled in the art. And it's on the red list as a neutron generator. So, Patent Examiner Joe picks up the group 220 phone, and tells them that he's received a red-list patent they might be interested in.

DOE guy Ralph looks at it, his eyes bug, and he decides to file for an immediate 181. As part of the fun, he notifies the FBI and starts an investigation that way, then calls DIA and asks for xploder's bonafides if he was ever military. The Feebs call back and inform Ralph that xploder holds a TS/SCI at Pantex in the field, DIA lets him know that xploder was not only in the Army, but was an 18E,C and is still in his eight year post-ETS period. Ralph breathes a sigh of relief, since he's got xploder by both 'nads in terms of secrecy agreements. He starts the paperwork with the patent office to gag the patent, tosses the patent draft to technical review by a Sigma 2 guy at LANL's ESA division to verify if the thing has any validity, and schedules a conference call with Pantex to see if it's stolen from xploder's work related projects.

Within a couple of days, LANL has reported that initial inspection of the material shows it may in fact, be the initiator of their dreams, pending further analysis. LANL gets a team of Sigma 1 wonks together and starts picking it to bits. It is not Pantex material. Ralph gets a plane ticket with some FBI guys and makes a trip to xploder's house. There they deliver him "the letter". It tells xploder that his patent has been deemed a matter of national security due to part 181 and the "born secret" act. They explain to him that he cannot discuss it further with anyone, that it is now classified, and that he is required to comply, NDA or no, but since he is already TS/SCI for one project, they will likely be approaching him with an NDA to cover the bases within the next few days. However, in the interim, violation of this involuntary restriction will rescind his current clearance.

They ask xploder if he has spoken to anyone about the invention. He says no. The FBI will interview xploder's known acquaintances anyway over the next month or so, and they'll get them from his clearance paperwork, and also from the Army who will slip them a relationship graph under the table. Any of xploder's friends and workmates who shows up knowing anything at all about this will be required to sign what amounts to an NDA. But they don't find anyone.

About a month later, xploder gets another visit from Ralph. The FBI check completed, no-one knows about it that shouldn't, LANL says it's the best thing since Sandia came up with halogen-metal nanoparticulate composite explosives and everyone's dancing in the streets. Xploder gets a list of the vendors to whom he is approved to license his patent. It's a short list. Xploder is told that he can appeal, but he'll be required to use a lawyer with TS and Q clearance. The 181 will be reviewed periodically for general release, but since it's a DOE born secret patent, that'll never happen. Xploder signs a type II secrecy order. After thinking about it, he licenses Sandia the patent and becomes a multi-millionaire, quits Pantex, and moves to the US Virgin Islands where he lives happily ever after. About two years later, xploder gets a weird plaque to put on the wall that says something like "For contributions to an unnamed project on an unstated date, we would like to commend xploder for his exemplary work in the field of physics" No one understands it but xploder.

[scenario 2]

xploder is a physicist at a university. The patent examiner gets xploder's patent, opens it, and takes a brief look. There's math, references to various scientific pubs, some explicit drawings, it looks like a well-formed patent, written by someone that's skilled in the art. And it's on the red list as a neutron generator. So, Patent Examiner Joe picks up the group 220 phone, and tells them that he's received a red-list patent they might be interested in.

DOE guy Ralph looks at it, his eyes bug, and he decides to file for an immediate 181. As part of the fun, he notifies the FBI and starts an investigation that way, then calls DIA and asks for xploder's bonafides if he was ever military. The Feebs call back and inform Ralph that xploder has no clearance, and was not military, but there are no red flags on his information, but that they'll commence a full investigation. Ralph shakes his head. He starts the paperwork with the patent office to gag the patent, tosses the patent draft to technical review by a Sigma 2 guy at LANL's ESA division to verify if the thing has any validity, and schedules a conference call with the physics department head with whom DOE has some relations to see if xploder snagged it from some ongoing government development work there.

Within a couple of days, LANL has reported that initial inspection of the material shows it may in fact, be the initiator of their dreams, pending further analysis. LANL gets a team of Sigma 1 wonks together and starts picking it to bits. It is not university material. Ralph gets a plane ticket with some FBI guys and makes a trip to xploder's house. There they deliver him "the letter". It tells xploder that his patent has been deemed a matter of national security due to part 181 and the "born secret" act. They explain to him that he cannot discuss it further with anyone, that it is now classified, and that he is required to comply, NDA or no. They give him a type III letter, requiring him to keep quiet. They actually read it to him with a recorder going. They will review the penalties. He will find out that he can actually be executed after trial by a federal judge, without a jury, although it's never happened. But it might.

They ask xploder if he has spoken to anyone about the invention. He says no. The FBI will interview xploder's known acquaintances anyway over the next month or so, and they'll get them from the in-depth FBI investigation, who'll be interviewing everyone xploder ever knew from grade school up, and also from the Army who will slip them a relationship graph under the table. Any of xploder's relatives, friends and workmates who shows up knowing anything at all about this will be required to sign what amounts to an NDA. They don't find anyone, so that's cool.

About a month later, xploder gets another visit from Ralph. The FBI check completed, no-one knows about it that shouldn't, LANL says it's the best thing since Sandia came up with halogen-metal nanoparticulate composite explosives and everyone's dancing in the streets. Xploder gets a list of the vendors to whom he is approved to license his patent. It's a short list. Xploder is told that he can appeal, but he'll be required to use a lawyer with TS and Q clearance. The 181 will be reviewed periodically for general release, but since it's a DOE born secret patent, that'll never happen. After thinking about it, he licenses Sandia the patent and becomes a multi-millionaire, quits teaching, and moves to the US Virgin Islands where he lives happily ever after.

[scenario 3]

xploder has a degree in physics, but quit to work at a commune. The patent examiner gets xploder's patent, opens it, and takes a brief look. There's math, references to various scientific pubs, some explicit drawings, it looks like a well-formed patent, written by someone that's skilled in the art. And it's on the red list as a neutron generator. So, Patent Examiner Joe picks up the group 220 phone, and tells them that he's received a red-list patent they might be interested in.

DOE guy Ralph looks at it, his eyes bug, and he decides to file for an immediate 181. As part of the fun, he notifies the FBI and starts an investigation that way, then calls DIA and asks for xploder's bonafides if he was ever military. The Feebs call back and inform Ralph that xploder is a member of several shady organizations, and was not military, in addition to which he often travels overseas where he does work with French trade unions, and they'll commence a full investigation. Ralph shakes his head. He starts the paperwork with the patent office to gag the patent, tosses the patent draft to technical review by a Sigma 2 guy at LANL's ESA division to verify if the thing has any validity, and carefully scans the relationship graph to see if xploder snagged it from some acquaintance doing government development work.

Within a couple of days, LANL has reported that initial inspection of the material shows it may in fact, be the initiator of their dreams, pending further analysis. LANL gets a team of Sigma 1 wonks together and starts picking it to bits. Ralph gets a plane ticket with some FBI guys and makes a trip to xploder's house. There they deliver him "the letter". It tells xploder that his patent has been deemed a matter of national security due to part 181 and the "born secret" act. They explain to him that he cannot discuss it further with anyone, that it is now classified, and that he is required to comply, NDA or no. They give him a type III letter, requiring him to keep quiet. They actually read it to him with a recorder going. They will review the penalties. He will find out that he can actually be executed after trial by a federal judge, without a jury, although it's never happened. But it might.

They ask xploder if he has spoken to anyone about the invention. He says no. The FBI will interview xploder's known acquaintances anyway over the next month or so, and they'll get them from the in-depth FBI investigation, who'll be interviewing everyone xploder ever knew from grade school up, and also from the Army who will slip them a relationship graph under the table. Any of xploder's relatives, friends and workmates who shows up knowing anything at all about this will be required to sign what amounts to an NDA. They find that xploder has been talking to some guys that are known to be security problems. They tap xploder's phone, and catch him in the act. The FBI goes back to xploder's house and arrests him for lying to government officials and for violating the type III security condition. xploder's house is stripped of any materials. Sandia gets it for free. xploder gets put into a supermax facility for 10 consecutive 15 year sentences and is never seen again.

Sandia uses the patent without paying for it, and everyone there gets a 1% pay raise the next year due to xploder's being an arse.

Originally posted by Bedlam

if you invented something on that list and the milatary wanted what protections from them would be avaliable?
what i mean is if its national security once they had the idea what would happen to the individual who invented it?
people have disapaired before after inventing things
is there an agency you can contact without going bye bye?
xploder

Ok. Here's the process in a nutshell.

[scenario 1]
[... secret patent ...]
[scenario 2]
[... secret patent ...]
[scenario 3]
[...]

Nice story, but the U.S. statute under discussion says nothing about secret patents and licensing. It says the patent can be withheld. Where can I learn more about these secret patents and licensing deals?

Sandia uses the patent without paying for it, and everyone there gets a 1% pay raise the next year due to xploder's being an arse.

I think it's impolite to call someone an arse for talking to people about their OWN thoughts and inventions (arsuming that's the equivalent of "ass" in American English).

Originally posted by james404
Nice story, but the U.S. statute under discussion says nothing about secret patents and licensing. It says the patent can be withheld. Where can I learn more about these secret patents and licensing deals?

It doesn't say anything about group 220 either, yet they exist. When you receive the gift of a 181 gag, you may, at the Gubmint's discretion, be offered a list of acceptable licensees. They'll make it plain that they don't have to do this, nor do you have to accept, and your idea may be gaggable but unusable in which case you won't get a list at all.

The best way is to do it for yourself. You might also find it interesting to call the USPTO and ask for group 220 in the L&R branch, see if there's a public spokesman who'll expound on the process.

I think it's impolite to call someone an arse for talking to people about their OWN thoughts and inventions (arsuming that's the equivalent of "ass" in American English).

I think it's amusing when someone who's intensely concrete misreads a metaphor or simile. As for me, I never metaphor I didn't like.

edit: as to your first point again, the point of the 181 gag is not to prevent the invention from ever being implemented, it's generally to secure that implementation to the government for some period, to give the government or its assignees sole use. This involves an under-the-table licensing operation, as the government can't just appropriate it and give it to Pantex to implement as their own patent. Although that may be one of the things that is offered you, especially if you fall into the "type III agreement" group.

As the government rarely if ever builds things for itself, such licensure will nearly always be a government-owned lab such as Pantex, LANL or Sandia, or a first-tier prime like Boeing or LockMar. For most such patents, this will persist for a period like pryde said of 2 years up until the patent would have lapsed anyway. Except for born secret patents, which may be faux-reviewed but will never, ever revert to you, and rarely if ever are they declassed.

If you send in the patent and at the same time patent in other country’s. then the next day send it to science journals. And science web sites. They can not take it from you. Its out in the open to benefit the world. Witch is the way it should be.
They will just have to try and discredit you.
Like they have don many times before.
Cold fusion!

humans are a slave race...

Originally posted by Bedlam
It doesn't say anything about group 220 either, yet they exist. When you receive the gift of a 181 gag, you may, at the Gubmint's discretion, be offered a list of acceptable licensees. They'll make it plain that they don't have to do this, nor do you have to accept, and your idea may be gaggable but unusable in which case you won't get a list at all.

Okay I'll have to do some more reading there.

Maybe you could fill in the blanks in another scenario. Suppose james404 invents a machine learning algorithm that fits most/all of the criteria that most people would consider artificial general intelligence. It would have obvious military applications, but it could also provide benefits in financial markets (predicting the stock market), media (producing and rendering an awesome, original movie), etc.

James404 applies for a patent, hoping to license it to all kinds of industries including hedge funds and movie producers, but the gubmint deems it a threat to national security and denies the patent. The licensing for secret defense contracts would amount to only a small fraction of the possible profits if it could be publicly patented, so james404 decides that NOBODY except himself has the permission to use the algorithm.

1) Would james404 still be permitted to use the algorithm that he designed on his own?

2) In 20 years, a FOIA request reveals that the military started using the algorithm shortly after the patent was filed. Would there be any legal recourse?

reply to post by buddha


For nuclear patents, they can toss you in the hoosegow if you do that. If it's a patent that actually is ALREADY a patent, just that it's on "the other list" you can't see, and you publish it, there's some question legally but technically you still fall under the act that forbids disclosure of a short list of technological stuff that's got a death penalty attached to it.

They don't even need a jury trial.

The question always comes up during discussions on this as to whether it only triggers if you do this AFTER you have an NDA, or if it applies to everyone, I've heard it argued both ways. AFAIK it's never been used to actually execute someone, but they read it to you in gory detail every time you are read onto a classified project of that sort.

Originally posted by james404

1) Would james404 still be permitted to use the algorithm that he designed on his own?

2) In 20 years, a FOIA request reveals that the military started using the algorithm shortly after the patent was filed. Would there be any legal recourse?

Hm. I'd have to unearth a copy of "the letter" but IIRC there is a statement that says you are enjoined from disclosure, which in their terms means "can't use it", I have never gotten the bad one since I'm generally cleared on projects similar to the ones I'm getting patents on anyway and I'm a GoodRisk®, but I think they don't let you sell, develop or otherwise use it as a part of a product.

As for the second one, yeah, I don't think they are allowed to just give it away, either. Although in practice, ever finding out if they did might become difficult. Way back when, Leo Szilard licensed some of the key patents for the atomic bomb to the US for a dollar.

I dimly recall something a lot like this, a guy had invented a really nice filter, seems like it was basically a Kalman filter, and had his implementation gagged. At first he couldn't have it at all, after a couple of years he could embed it in binaries but not publish source, then for a while he couldn't export it. We used it here for some project or other.

Oh, back on your other issue, it's in 10 USC 140C, which deals in how the secdef's office handles gagged patents:

Within 90 days after enactment of this section, the Secretary of Defense shall propose regulations to implement this section. Such regulations shall be published in the Federal Register for a period of no less than 30 days for public comment before promulgation. Such regulations shall address, where appropriate, releases of technical data to allies of the United States and to qualified United States contractors, including United States contractors that are small business concerns, for use in performing United States Government contracts.

That's where your offers to under-the-table licensees comes from.

edit:

181 states that they can, if they deem it necessary, rule that the material be kept secret. That would mean more than just not patenting it, it includes not selling it, or divulging it. I know in practice they also make everyone you've already divulged it to subject to secrecy orders as well. It can be a real friendship strainer, I'm told.

Oh, and if you like reading that sort of thing, the 181 gag's legal authority is also related to:

Executive Order 12356
10 USC 140C
DoD Directive 5230.25
and as
32 CFR Part 250,

there are other regulations that govern the DOE's ability to swoop in and make off with nuclear stuff, they're a superset of this. If anyone's real interested I can look it up in the handbook.

You know whats funny? i made this device that uses magnets in this loop that uses this smaller magent to go around this loop building a charge to light a bulb, and it just keeps going and going and going...untill the bulb goes out (takes awhile) the one downside to this device i made, is i cant turn it off without smashing it.

Wait...that was illegal? i plan on using it to put hydro 1 out of business, why pay thousands a month for hydro, when you could pay...10$ a month? or using water as fuel in your hydrogen powered car, why you ask? simply the goverment is made out of human beings, and as we all know human beings are retarded and greedy.

I could get shot in the face, but i am going to take my chances, my name is Anthony Joseph Merrow i live in canada, and i am going to put hydro 1 out of business by the time i am 30 (currently 20) i also plan on making a hydrogen powered car (really isnt that hard, just a simple hydrolic system)

Personally i think if anyone makes this devices, they could b e afraid of patenting them merely because of thier paranoia and fear that thier life would be ended by some "elite" i am going to not only patent these devices but i will live and live and live, untill i die either an old man or slightly younger from cancer.

If you can come up with an idea, you are allowed to make it, i couldnt care less what some wallstreet fatcat thought about it, because it is about the human race in long term survival, and suing short term investment stragiest will ultimatly be our undoing.

So join me in this coming decade, if you have an idea, that you can make, and will change the world. Go ahead make it! Nobody can stop you, especilly if you lay your house full of traps (i can come up with some very interseting ideas) If a physicist tells you a portetual motion device is impossible merely tell them "you did not create this universe, thus you do not know its possiblities" anything can be achived with technogly. and i mean ANYTHING.

So while homo sapeins attempt to control thier own population, homo novus will come and merely destory everything they have worked so hard to achieve, the next 5 years will be major changes, just wait and see)

reply to post by Anthony1138


Hi, the device you speak of sounds interesting, i would like to know more about it.

What are your plans? Patenting? or giving to the world for free?

If you are not patenting, you should bring it out in the open, publish as much as you can, that way the prior art will prevent it from being patented by other.

I would like to know more about it, please tell or PM me.

If you do not feel like that, good luck anyway and keep up the good work!

reply to post by EarthOccupant


Ty for your research .keep up the good work! +1 star.......

reply to post by EarthOccupant


And people have the nerve to argue that "the man" isn't trying to hold us down. This is proof to the contrary and the sad thing is we could be doing sooooo much better if we didn't have the burden of government weighing us down...

Imagine what a different world we would be living in if the public were allowed access to such technologies. That's why I don't buy into the whole global warming thing. If government were so concerned about it, why suppress clean and more efficient technologies?

Sorry double post

On the other hand, what if I developed a little box with a button that once you press it the world blows up.
They might not want to let you patent that one, right?

reply to post by Bedlam


Great story, but anything they want they will pay you or kill you for. It is that simple.

Originally posted by guidanceofthe third kind
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Great story, but anything they want they will pay you or kill you for. It is that simple.

Hasn't happened to me so far. The killing part. I've gotten paid for some, not for others. Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever heard of a corroboratable story where someone got killed for a patent. I do very much think if you're not clearance material and you hold out, and they want it, they just take it anyway and you can have a fun time trying to prove it in court. Although I can't prove that one either.

Now, I have had the Navy make off with my stuff right out in the open without so much as a reach-around during project bids. Twice. Three times if you count them doing it to SAIC when we were the designers on the project they were first-tiering for.

Originally posted by EarthOccupant
In the last 100 years there was no significant inventions on engines? Saving fuels? I'm i to believe that with trillions of budget all around the world the took 100 years to invent a Toyota Hybrid ?

Fun fact, the Model-T Ford (1908) got 25 miles per gallon.
The current EPA average is 21 miles per gallon.

We have in fact gone backwards.

reply to post by Bedlam


from what understand of your three examples
if a civilian wants do do there part they have to be ready to accept an invasive process that could disrupt their lives and the lives of the people around them.
i wounder if the govenment realizes this attitude of personal inspection makes disclosure to govenment of inventions a rather unerving process and might stop people from doing their "part" for their nation.

thank you for ansewering my questions

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER
from what understand of your three examples
if a civilian wants do do there part they have to be ready to accept an invasive process that could disrupt their lives and the lives of the people around them.

It can be pretty invasive, if you get a 181 gag, especially so if you're not already in 'the business'. This doesn't happen all that often though. IIRC it ends up being maybe 500 to companies, 100 to 200 for individuals per year. And for the most part, the individuals are either smart-asses like me out to set the record or they're sigma 1 jocks from Sandia or the like.

The conspiracy sites (Tom Valone is a shining example) like to play this up to sell site clicks or books. It sounds all ominous. But unless you're patenting nuke parts, it's not likely you'll ever face the wrath of group 220.

I was puttering around on a patent site today - the lawyer actually did put in there that you should never try to patent something overseas first lest you fall subject to the flip side of the 181, which is the technology export act. It's sort of 'gag lite'. You can patent things here you cannot patent in Europe.

I came up with something this week I will try to patent individually, it definitely won't fall to group 220, but I've always used the company's patent lawyer. Only they gig you about $15-20K per patent for somewhat technical patents (but not fullbore radar sort of patents - those are a lot higher) and in the end we end up writing all the text and doing most of the search anyway. It'll be instructive to try one "bareback".