The dualistic paradigm - our real enslavement

Because of the more increasing number of threads concerning "left vs right", "rich vs poor", "us vs them" and who is to blame I decided to draw your attention to this wonderful video by Pixar.

I hope you enjoy it and get the point, because I really do think that getting over the dualistic paradigm is our only salvation.

Have fun and think about it!

Day and Night

This is a great video. Pretty much explains the purpose of Life.

reply to post by ElevenFlint


It was a cute video. Although the way to "get over" the dualistic paradigm is not to learn to love/accept the "other" as being as good as our self, or as worthy as our self, etc. Its to realize there is no other.

In truth it is never "day" or "night" on Earth. It is always both at the same time. Perspective alone makes us think that they are two. The way out of dualism is not learning to love those on the other side of some line. Its to realize the lines are arbitrary and meaningless.

Thank you for your reply!

It is exactly as you say. And I think in the video it is shown like that - both realize they are one and the same.

You cannot just "learn" to love and accept the others as yourself. It is like learning a lesson for school by heart without understanding the information. Realization is the first thing to happen, then it automatically leads to acceptance.

It is ridiculous if people think that "love your enemy" means literally to be good and loving to them while they are harming you. That is why it makes no sense to them. "How can I be good with corporations/PTB/criminals when they are violating my freedom and well-being? I must fight them!" As long as people don't realize that enemies are there just to show us our own flaws and other aspects of reality, they will always struggle and fight instead to try and understand their role in their lives. Real Love is understanding, it is not just blind kindness.

The lines are not meaningless - they have their role for us to understand their true meaning and get over them.

ya its a pretty cool video...duality is ingrained into the human psych though. theres no getting over it. its part of us.

it would be like saying "hey buddy, stop being selfish!" ..another impossible act. at some point in your life you have to be selfish to just to live, survive, love, produce etc...

Duality and its siblings are misunderstood concepts indeed. How to find a balance is always a rough ride I believe.

reply to post by open_eyeballs

There was something else once I do intuit, before the duality became ingrained, which, if more congruent with the REAL reality is therefore more powerful in the end, or is that just another duality in opposition to duality..? Still another strong game of black and white..?

To say that we cannot and never will get over it...?

Maybe that's the devil in us talking..! (how ironic to say when discussing the end of duality)

We can do, think, or be anything we want. We do not HAVE to accept as nurishment, the bones of a dead worldview, any more. There's still a choice, but yes a lot of conditioning and brainwashing to UNDO.

Fortunately, suffering leads to the end of itself via conscious suffering, so maybe what's NEW is the inevitability, not the way things have been or were, up until now..

I am choosing to reject and turn off the crap, the junk stuff, and try to focus on something better even by an infinite degree, coming at us full steam from the future, from an as yet unborn realm of limitless possibility, so there is still HOPE, for the optimists among us, and as for the rest, for the staunch cynics, there may be nothing that can be done to "change their minds" and so to move forward, we must "leave the dead to bury their dead", since no one who looks back is fit to plow the field.. at some point, we shall have to move forward, without them, imho. They will either come along for the new ride, or remain behind, convinced that all is lost and that we shall be forever imprisoned in a totally cruel world. Even then I suspect that invitations to the party of the ages will still be circulating, so maybe it's never too late to look again, see again, and be transformed. Time will tell I guess, all I know is the future's not set in stone, not yet.

Furthermore the "we" is very powerful, by many orders of magnitude, to bring about the kind of transformation in human being that's really needed.

Perhaps with nothing but faith the size of a tiny seed, we can move mountains of historical causation. After all, anything is possible.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I hold you and your view in very hgh regard, although I have never attained that state of absolute oneness myself, yet, or I don't THINK I have.. !

But imo, it's too hard, or too easy, to "grok" for people, the no-self self, wherein all distinctions are completely arbitrary, and it just doesn't "jive" imho with our human experience as social beings. The "star of enlightenment" you speak of, and appear to have "grokked", which would make you a Buddha of sorts and a person of astounding wisdom (which is why I hold you in such high regard, as you don't seem to be incongruent about this way of being as something plainly obvious, to you) is what I call the star of isolate or God-consciousness, and there are few people on EARTH at this time, who have attained it, who have that degree of gnosis, nor can the many, even if they GOT that, hang onto it. And so I just don't think it's workable, but please don't take that the wrong way or as a jab at your conception, which is beautiful, and of immense value.

Instead what I see is something i like to call the newfound relativity of human being, and it's a family affair, circumnavitating our world, where the only thing arbitrary, is where we draw the distinction between "us" and "them", recognizing at the very deepest level, that while we are not all ONE ie: we are individualized and differentiated with separate bodies, and roles to play (images, ego etc), we do share the very same ground of being, or backdrop, within which we all share the same fundamental experience of BEING a human being, we all have that in common, and, by extension, we really and truly ARE all part of one larger family framework and even share the same roots and origins through the mists of time and history.

Once we "get" that, then we will have "harnessed for God the energies of love", and will have then, for the 2nd time in the history of the world, discovered fire (as spirit) [Pierre de Chardin, paraphrased]
Then and only then, could we possibly begin, to really start to explore the realm of absolute oneness you speak of, as a step two, or whatever. So I thin you're ahead by a century, or more that this absolute oneness could take hold.

We just can't kill the idea of a seperate self either, I don't think, and so the relativity of human being is the final social framework within which, we may explore, through the other, who and what we really are whereby the human being is in fact a mystery, which can ONLY be explored via the relativity of human being framework. It's a mutual exploration and discovery process of one another, and so at the final end of THAT process, something which could in principal go on for centuries or millenia (although when it arrives it will "happen all at once"), perhaps then we will begin to explore the no-self self fully and completely and come to that grand realization you describe, for which all creation is groaning in travail to experience most fully, waiting on us human beings here at Earth of all places.. (how absurd eh?)

So while it's always good to begin with the end in mind, we might have to move through the family framework of the relativity of human being, as a Phase One process, and it's easy really...

- since the principal motivation for the human being and for all human creative endeavours, is love, or the desire to love and be loved, where to give love IS to recieve it (via your oneness conception). To love neighbor IS to love self!!! (maybe I am starting to "grok" you better now what you're really saying..! woah, that's not so easy to grasp or grok fully, how BEAUTIFUL!)

So this is when Chardin's Dream will be realized - when we come at last to understand, and to grok most fully of, tha truth and the reality, that "love other as self" isn't a labour, but an absolute JOY, and the very thing we are here to DO as individualized beings, to bring that realization about, and we'll get there, can't not, since it's just so powerful, so imminently attractive, and such a STRONG IMPULSE.

What is "wrong with the world" then amounts to nothing more, or less than an abject failure in love, on ALL OUR PARTS.

First we've got to take responsibility for that and maybe even shed a few tears in the process who knows whatever it takes..

We failed to love as we are loved, and to realize that it is always and forever more blessed to give than to recieve, because to give IS to recieve AND to give both, at the same time. And that my friends, is what's called a powerful POWERFUL, self reinforcing dynamic of love and mutuality within a newfound relativity of human being.

Somehow we need to cultivate the fruits of the spirit, I believe, and really learn first how to RECIEVE love, and how to in turn love ourselves more fully (as we are loved, even if only by an IMAGINED perfect observer), and then we can really get out there and start making some very SERIOUS changes in the world, at all levels high and low, near and far, especially these days in the days of the "noosphere" (Chardin again).

But whatever it is, it's got to go all the way, and so it's got to make perfect rational sense at the same time, and fit with what we actually experience as human beings, as individualized beings in the illusion of creation, expressing God, one to another, and getting a real KICK out of doing it, and having a profound and wonderful spiritual experience at the same time! It's like a DRUG of some kind! Try it, you'll like it! (remember that "Mikey" commercial)

I know I'm weird, with some sort of Jesus complex or something, but just for the record.

I love you all.

Rob
Vancouver Canada, eh?

P.S. Someone around here should make a new thread here at ATS, entitled

Jesus and Buddha UNITE!

You could join the circle at last within the "noosphere" and where it goes from there, nobody knows...since anything is possible.

I'm either totally crazy, or totally sane. Can't be one or the other here, so I'll just have to be willing to make of myself a fool and leave it up to you to decide.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


nothing...? that doesn't trigger anything for anyone, or get a star I don't get it?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Thank you for stopping by and sharing your thoughts! It's a real pleasure that someone takes this discussion seriously. I am a bit surprised that most people are still so deep into dualistic way of thinking. It is about time to realize that this way is not taking us any further from where we are now.

Let me elaborate on this a bit more. I will bold it this time:
To get over the dualistic way of thinking does not mean to get rid of our ego. Or that our ego is meaningless. Nothing in existence in this Universe is meaningless. Everything has its purpose. So what we have to do is realize its purpose and thus it will fade away with time because it will have played its role and will be of use no more.

But many people on the quest for Enlightenment get this idea wrong or just don't get it. That is why I don't like spiritual teachings - they make Enligtenment seem something very hard to reach, separate it from ordinary people and make it accessible only for higher spiritual beings like Buddhas and such. And for us - the ordinary people, it is a very very hard task, requiring much effort and almost impossible to accomplish in one lifetime. So we start going after it, but at the same time we live with the idea how hard is it to "get there" and thus we become like mules going after a carrot on a stick (this is my favorite metaphor, because it describes it so well ).

However all we have to realize is that we carry the Truth within us, we are of Truth and no matter how hard we try to deviate from it, we can never get really lost. All our dualistic roles have its purpose, which in its base is namely to realize what we really are. There is no "Ultimate Enlightenment" which is followed by Eternal Bliss and even if there is - I don't think anyone is really interested in it. It sounds very boring to me personally. My opinion is that true Enlightenment has much to do with the realization of the purpose of Life and it's an everlasting process. It makes you happy with whatever role you have to play, because you know that this way you experience everything that is possible and for a good reason. And possible is everything.

No spiritual teacher should make their students feel the distinction between "teacher" and "student". Because we are all students. That's why religion leads everywhere else but not to Enlightenment. The same is with most spiritual teachings. As long as people feel "unenlightened" they won't be able to experience true enlightenment. This can be applied to everything that has its dualistic counterpart.

I feel I'm already going in the direction of my other thread - so please check it out, if you haven't:
To All Truth Seekers

Thank you all, who are interested and willing to discuss - I believe cooperation is the key.

reply to post by ElevenFlint


Thanks for your reply and star, and I agree about the ego, and neither would I want to kill love between self and other by suggesting that there is nothing TO love, since everything, is nothing, there's a risk of nihilism and complete apathy in total oneness imho.

But I really thought I rang the bell in my last post, like big time, the idea of how easy and enjoyable it could be to turn the tables in favour of a newfound mutuality of human being.

I still don't feel understood however at all, as in "thanks for your thoughts...next".

Also, while of course we are all students, sometimes, if someone or another happens to appropriate a wonderful truth, that then needs to be shared with others, and that's called teaching and there's nothing wrong with that.

I suggest we might just pause here at this point in a very important discussion and sit with it for a bit and try to "grok" the significance of this issue and the means by which the problem might be solved, even if just one person at a time whereby we must be the change we seek.

I'm starting to get something here, to grok something, but it's no good if I'm left alone in isolation with that awareness.

Please consider therefore, dear reader what I offered in my last post, thank you.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
and there are few people on EARTH at this time, who have attained it, who have that degree of gnosis, nor can the many, even if they GOT that, hang onto it. And so I just don't think it's workable, but please don't take that the wrong way or as a jab at your conception, which is beautiful, and of immense value.

I dont take it the wrong way. You are absolutely correct. Even those who have seen, experienced or "grokked" the Truth with a capital T, are still, if they are able to type or speak, forced to use the mind and its limits to perceive and communicate. And even they can easily get lured back into the delusion. Dualism is such a strong trap because of the architecture of our minds. Things really do look separate. Our perspective DOES make it seem to us that night and day are two, not one.

However, where I will have to disagree is that we should let this limitation determine our path. We cant see ultraviolet, and yet we are capable of understanding that it is. We might forget it in our day to day lives, but a small reminder and yep, we can again hold in our minds the truth that spectrum of light we cannot see does exist and is visible to other creatures. Many of us cannot see our individual cells, (have not used a microscope to do so) but we can grasp that the "one" that is us, is actually a multiplicity. We are capable of making "oneness" part of our working knowledge. Even if we dont each (individually) have the "whoa" experience and grokking it in that way.

In much the same way, we have been toying with the idea of Oneness for well over 2000 years. Jesus is one of the most well known spiritual leaders in the world, and he hinted at it quite vigorously, (as you point out) and still we pretend that its ok to focus on the arbitrary lines, and ignore the teaching that points to the Truth of our Oneness.

"Judge not, lest you too be judged." "Love thy neighbor as thyself." "Love they enemy as thyself." He hints and hints but he does not force the issue, preferring to let "he who has ears hear," and "he who has eyes see." We have progressed in our knowledge base since his time. I think we can flat out say what he had to hint at to try to avoid being killed.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
where the only thing arbitrary, is where we draw the distinction between "us" and "them", recognizing at the very deepest level, that while we are not all ONE ie: we are individualized and differentiated with separate bodies, and roles to play (images, ego etc), we do share the very same ground of being, or backdrop, within which we all share the same fundamental experience of BEING a human being, we all have that in common, and, by extension, we really and truly ARE all part of one larger family framework and even share the same roots and origins through the mists of time and history.

The cells in our body are individual and differentiated too, and yet they are part of a One, that we call "I." In those cells again there are parts that form the whole we call a cell. In those parts again there are smaller units that combine to make that part. One vs Many as concepts is just more dualism. The Truth is that it isnt an either/or proposition. The way out of dualism is not to chose One, its to realize there is no choice, because the line between the two is not meaningful. The multiplicitysingularity. Its hard to think about, even if you have seen/experienced it. But its like ultraviolet light. You can make it part of your operating intelligence even if you cant "know" it in the way we know the things the senses are capable of perceiving.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
So I thin you're ahead by a century, or more that this absolute oneness could take hold.

The working concept has been available on the planet for millennia. But we keep putting off the grasping or implementation of it. And perhaps rightly so, there may not have been enough background information for minds to really get it in the past. But I think we do have the ability to get it now. We do know about cells making up bodies, we can understand that concept of a multiplicity making up a One.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
We just can't kill the idea of a seperate self either, I don't think,

No, and to do so would just be more dualism.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
- since the principal motivation for the human being and for all human creative endeavours, is love, or the desire to love and be loved, where to give love IS to recieve it (via your oneness conception). To love neighbor IS to love self!!!

(maybe I am starting to "grok" you better now what you're really saying..! woah, that's not so easy to grasp or grok fully, how BEAUTIFUL!)

And its wasnt that hard at all to grok it, was it? Even if it isnt "fully" you still saw it. Just because you realize that you are loving yourself, or yelling at yourself, or talking to yourself, it doesnt change much. You dont suddenly STOP getting mad at yourself, or yelling at yourself. But when it reaches a certain pitch, it becomes hysterical that you can be SOOOOOO mad at yourself. It doesnt change much, but that operating knowledge does change things profoundly.

And the "usefulness" of separation is still there, functionally. Only now instead of trying to change or guide others through purely external means, you have another tool. You can use the world outside you as a mirror. You can realize that what you see is You, and that you dont have to change what you see purely by trying to manipulate the external.

The example I use is when you look in a mirror and see mud on your face, how productive is it to wipe the surface of the mirror? Not very. You can wipe all day and still the mud remains on the reflection. Because you have to reach up and take it off YOUR face to make it stop showing up in the mirror.

(the beam in your eye, rather than the speck in your brothers)

Being aware of the Truth of the multiplicitysingularity, "oneness" for convenience, opens up tools to you/me/us. We can stop endlessly battering "each other" trying to effect change and we can begin to use our energy more wisely, by focusing on our selves and using "other" as a mirror to see what otherwise would be hidden from us. Or failing that we can at least laugh at the pointlessness of our battering "each other."

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
We failed to love as we are loved, and to realize that it is always and forever more blessed to give than to recieve, because to give IS to recieve AND to give both, at the same time. And that my friends, is what's called a powerful POWERFUL, self reinforcing dynamic of love and mutuality within a newfound relativity of human being.

Amen.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I'm either totally crazy, or totally sane. Can't be one or the other here, so I'll just have to be willing to make of myself a fool and leave it up to you to decide.

edit on 15-11-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

You are no fool, but we are, humanity as a collective One, a little crazy. We are working on sanity, but its not easy.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Well thank God then that it's not ALL "my fault", and that we carry the burden collectively.

I will do my best, from my end to be more willing, and that's about all I can do, eh?

Time to stop battering everyone over and over and over, I can see that, but it has been nice to share something anyway, whatever that might have been..

But sure, I'm a hypocrite, I'm no Jesus, in the same way that I suspect you're not Buddha either.

That we HAVE so much work to do, isn't all THAT bad either, and maybe that's why we're HERE in this "veil of tears".

I often suspect very strongly, that to be born in THIS world, is THE highest honour, because this is the place where there's just so much more that needs to be understood and implemented in a practical way.

This is an important thread.

Thank you for taking the time to provide the feedback, every little bit helps.

Best Regards,

NAM

Originally posted by ElevenFlint

Let me elaborate on this a bit more. I will bold it this time:
To get over the dualistic way of thinking does not mean to get rid of our ego.

Of course it doesnt. That would just me more dualism. "Self/Ego." You dont get rid of Ego. You just stop being fooled into thinking that what is a component is the totality of you. It is a piece, a part, a tool. Its necessary to play here. But you dont have to believe that this part is the whole, and draw a line around it and call it "me" as opposed to "not me."

Originally posted by ElevenFlint
That is why I don't like spiritual teachings - they make Enligtenment seem something very hard to reach, separate it from ordinary people and make it accessible only for higher spiritual beings like Buddhas and such.

Which teachings are you reading? One teaching is that you are already a Buddha, everyone is, but you just dont know it (mostly because you think your ego is the totality of you.) And the "path" could not be less difficult, (in theory anyway) because it is a cessation of striving or trying to "become" in a recognition of what you already are. What makes it problematic is the impulse it to "try not to try" in order to "get it" which is of course actually trying and striving to become again, isnt it?

Originally posted by ElevenFlint
And for us - the ordinary people, it is a very very hard task, requiring much effort and almost impossible to accomplish in one lifetime. So we start going after it, but at the same time we live with the idea how hard is it to "get there" and thus we become like mules going after a carrot on a stick (this is my favorite metaphor, because it describes it so well

).

Its quite the metaphor, but that teaching is very polluted. Its true there is no time limit, but how did the Buddha become the Buddha? Was it all the striving he did? Or was it when he sat down and finally just gave up? Unfortunately for most people, they are persistent. They will try everything and anything to avoid just stopping and letting go. And sometimes it may take lifetimes. But it sure doesnt need to. It takes a fraction of a second to just stop.

Originally posted by ElevenFlint
There is no "Ultimate Enlightenment" which is followed by Eternal Bliss and even if there is - I don't think anyone is really interested in it. It sounds very boring to me personally.

There is, but its not for us. Its not for an "I," there is no "I" in "God." And its far from boring being everything that ever was and will be simultaneously without preference or identifying with any one bit more than any other. Boring is the last thing it is, bliss isnt enough to describe it. Of course the egoic mind takes a sour grapes attitude towards it. The ego cannot exist in that. Ego is the shadow cast by our separation from source. (Like night is the shadow cast by our separation from the sun, in a sense. If you join with source, you are in the light, and no shadow, or ego, exists. Much like if Earth was inside the Sun, there would be no night, anywhere.

Originally posted by ElevenFlint
My opinion is that true Enlightenment has much to do with the realization of the purpose of Life and it's an everlasting process. It makes you happy with whatever role you have to play, because you know that this way you experience everything that is possible and for a good reason. And possible is everything.

You dont even have to realize purpose intellectually. Enlightenment is just being fully in your moment, living, seeing completely what is there, and acting according to it. Of course if you meant realization as "to make real" rather than intellectual realization we are already in agreement.

Originally posted by ElevenFlint
No spiritual teacher should make their students feel the distinction between "teacher" and "student". Because we are all students. That's why religion leads everywhere else but not to Enlightenment. The same is with most spiritual teachings. As long as people feel "unenlightened" they won't be able to experience true enlightenment. This can be applied to everything that has its dualistic counterpart.

The lines are arbitrary and meaningless, ultimately. And you are right that people feeling sad because they arent Enlightened do cut themselves off from enlightenment. But not because of some person pretending superiority. Because the part of you that feels inferior or cares about those things, the ego, is not the part of you in which enlightenment occurs. So if you confuse the totality of "self" with that part that can be sad that it is not enlightened, you are right, you wont be. You will be lost in the part. However the person caught up in feeling glee that they were enlightened would be equally unenlightened. But if you can watch yourself feeling sad or gleeful that you are or arent enlightened without completely becoming lost in that part of you which feels it, guess what?

And a spiritual teacher, if they take on that role, should do whatever it takes to shake someone out of complete identification with their ego. If that means pissing them off by making them feel inferior, so be it. If that means making them build and tear down towers over and over, so be it. If that means cutting off their hand, pushing them out a window, or hitting them with sticks, so be it. There are no rules. Like J. Krishnamurti said, "the Truth is a pathless land."

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

But sure, I'm a hypocrite, I'm no Jesus, in the same way that I suspect you're not Buddha either.

What does it mean to be them? How were they different from us? You cant sort the person from the myth any more, can you? If you mean we are not the idealized versions of them, you are correct. But then, neither were they.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I often suspect very strongly, that to be born in THIS world, is THE highest honour, because this is the place where there's just so much more that needs to be understood and implemented in a practical way.

Or its just another thing we tell ourselves to make ourselves special, and different. After all, we dont really have anything much to compare it to, do we? Its hard to say that this world is much better than the 10th dimensional plane, or perhaps even the world of Zarpnaar in this dimension. We just kind of want to assume that we are in the "hardest class" when in fact this might be the short bus, and we might all be helmet wearing souls for all we know.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
This is an important thread.

Thank you for taking the time to provide the feedback, every little bit helps.

Best Regards,

NAM

I agree. Its a good conversation. And thank you for the feedback too.

Thank you for your posts! I appreciate them truly.

Illusionsaregrander, I couldn't agree more on most you say and I would like to elaborate more on some of your comments, but it is almost 2:00 a.m. here and it's pretty much night out there, even if its still a day by you. Such a fun!

Good night/day, guys!