To All Debunkers, and all Believers.

So after being a member of this website for a while, I've met quite a few great debunkers, debunkers I despise, and even debunkers, who's sanity I must question at times.

But I've also met alot of believers who are met with the same conditions, from my perspective...

The problem lately as that the believers are absolutely confident that all debunkers are there to be "disinfo" agents and have had a peice of UFO-event that they couldn't decipher or debunk. I want to show the believers that even the greatest debunkers have had events that they couldnt explain.

So here's an interesting activity. I know debunkers are moderately to impressively well at debunking UFO images, and videos.

To all the debunkers I call you out, to post atleast the subject, with pictures or videos if you please, of one subject or topic of UFOlogy, or an event caught with some matter of materialistic evidence.

Consider this... posting "The One I Couldn't Solve". Keep in mind that this isn't a race to debunk everything that gets posted. This is merely posting your personal "devil". The UFO event on tape, film, reading material, etc that you could just not put a finger on.

BEGIN!

reply to post by Shikamaru


Rendlesham is interesting.
en.wikipedia.org...

So is Kecksburg
en.wikipedia.org...

Interesting about Kecksburg is the resemblance to the descriptions of Die Glocke, Germany's secret project during WWII.

reply to post by Chamberf=6


I remember the reading about the Kecksburg mystery and seeing some documentaries on it. It had me deep into thinking about military response times to things like this.

Anyone else? I believe letting people know about issues that you felt you couldn't debunk is important because it shows that you AREN'T just there to deny everything.

i]reply to post by Shikamaru


to think that there arent paid people here is a bit nieve
holdren stated that conspiracy theorys are a problem
and there should be a contrived effort to "overwealm"
desenting ideas and conspiracy theorys

i dont acuse any individual
but i will add to the tactics used
if someone is on ats 12 out of every 24 hours
if the same info is posted over and over again (to overwhelm the thread)
if a group joins a thread all at once with the same debunking angle and hammers anyone not agreeing
if a member spends 6 hours thowing everything in the debunkers hand book at you one after the other claiming this disproves everything everytime the debunking has been derailed

i enjoy taking on obvious debunkers and challenge them with clear questions and reasoning untill they are either stopped from posting one size debunks all material or they wait till im offline to continue there tirade

my favourite footage is from the NYC ufo 13/10/10 incident
too many people saw stuff
airport closed
and this


i have had the same member tell me angrly
its the moon
its venus
its jupiter
its planes
its helicopters
and my favourite ballons
each time they were adiment i had to beleive them each time i proved it was not what they had explained they were then adiment it was the next thing and so on

non beleivers can be just as bad as blindly beleiving
deny ignorence to me means
most things can be explained
not all things can be describbed or explained

there is also personal reasons to prove or disprove et life

but when you combine all the factors at play here
most smart people wouldnt want to post about ufos for fear of being attacked by debunkers for fear of looking silly
its safer to attack others threads than it is to start one and risk being attacked

sad but new members that want to contribute wont and i think this is the idea

xploder

reply to post by Shikamaru


the other interesting thing is some people dont start threads
they just attempt to disrupt flow on others threads
look for lots of stars and no flags

lol

xp

reply to post by Shikamaru


I really hate these us vs. them threads! Nothing of worth is ever accomplished except the fights just have another outlet, ad infinitum! How about sticking to the script and let the believers keep posting their pitiful threads and allow skeptics/debunkers their say if they can bring some common sense, logical, reasonable conclusions?

The believers make more mistakes in their conclusions than the opposite camp but no one can say for a fact what anything else if it depends on a photo, video, or hearsay. This is not a scientific forum although there are a few savvy members but you can bet they're not gullible believers.

This forum is more of a YouTube video outlet! Why doesn't ATS acquire the UFO video branch of YouTube?

To me it is just a great story to unfold, and a great history to unravel.

I don't understand what a regular, intelligent, rational skeptic is supposed to believe when top government officials - and astronauts for cripes sake - publicly acknowledge this phenomenon.

As a skeptic, the hardest thing is probably coming to terms with expert testimony - because to deem them all crazy is itself ludicrous. (haters will hate)

And then on top of that, what do we do with things like Project Bluebook? Roswell? Battle of L.A.? Disclosure Project? The Internet? Even 9/11 would have to play a part in this story, if there is a story.

What about the ancient alien theories pushed by the History Channel? More specifically, what about the age of the earth and the extent of previous civilizations?

What about those religions which have unashamedly connected or retraced their religions to the ancient alien theory?(for recent examples I have discussed see link in signature )

How do we reconcile and integrate these areas into the story...

Is it all just a control game? Is it disclosure?

Or is it something in the middle... for example is it perhaps a plot which wishes to control us but also contains the truth?

Is it a paradigm shift?

Whatever is going to happen, I do think there will be some sort of ultimatum in the future - because even the most casual researcher will be overwhelmed with the seriousness of the field of flying saucers and "ufology" compared to other fringe subjects and pseudoscience.

It only takes one thing - one anomaly.

My anomaly is my experience. I know that something is up - something isn't right.

The one thing that stumps my skeptical brain - is that there isn't just one thing... its many.

(sorry to be so epic just the way it came out.)

It is a great limitation of the human mind to arbitrarily divide everything into black or white, gay or straight, right or left, us or them, or in this case, the debunkers versus the believers. The world - the universe - is infinitely more complicated than that, always, and a hallmark of critical thinking and intellectual depth is to be able to hold a nuanced position.

Yet people like me who are almost always critical of the posts in here get labeled by simplistic reasoners like you as "debunkers" simply because we won't by every unsubstantiated, undifferentiated, unexamined piece of what-not as "proof" of your pre-conceived, almost religious belief in not just alien existence, but rather in this whole UFO mythology, from Roswell and Betty Hill to Budd Hopkins to Stephen Greer - not one whit of which is proven.

I understand and accept that a certain percentage of the population is incapable of critical thinking. And I understand and accept that an even larger percentage is no longer capable of critical thinking, because that is no longer taught in schools, where the classical curriculum has been replaced by bells and busy work in order to train children to be obedient workers.

But I am not going to accept the clueless rambling of untrained, uneducated, semi-literate proselytes about UFOs, no more than I would the angry demands of (for example) devout Muslims, who might tell me: I know Mohammed's words are real, I read them, I feel it in my heart, I am sure of it! Or Jesus, or whoever.

I am not interested in your UFO religion. Only facts.

reply to post by Nicorette


Agreed.
There is a bit of the religious tinge to it isn't there?
Well guess I'm just saying that underneath all the shouting that gets done in this forum, there are some who like think the same as you on this subject.
Just call us the agnostics of said "religion".

There are some pictures I can not definitely disprove.

however, ultimately all it means is that they are UFOs, or unidentified Flying Objects.
Not aliens, governmental craft, or... well... anything, even a plastic bag, leaf, bird or bug.
Or, recently, even RC Planes.

Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by Shikamaru

 

the other interesting thing is some people dont start threads
they just attempt to disrupt flow on others threads
look for lots of stars and no flags

lol

xp

I'm disappointed. I just noticed I have a few stars and no flags. Hmmm! That's funny because if you visit my threads there are flags, but they aren't reflecting in my stats. Some of us don't care about stars or flags.

reply to post by The Shrike


I would like to point out that this isnt' a "us vs them" thread. It's a "hey I welcome all debunkers to show that not everything they've posted was a debunking of a certain topic". I'm asking the normal debunkers to post something that they've never been able to debunk.

And I called on believers to come here to see that even normal debunkers may have events, video, or anything of the form that they've never been able to debunk.

If you see that as an "Attack on their kind", then perhaps you are being too defensive, not reading the post, not contributing to the thread, and should relax. Atleast share an event, if you have one.

reply to post by beebs


Dude that WAS epic haha, and I appreciate your contribution to the thread. I have to ask though, is there any ONE paticular event that, through your skepticism, you can't find any paticular way to debunk it, enough that it kind of makes you go crazy? haha

Originally posted by Nicorette
Yet people like me who are almost always critical of the posts in here get labeled by simplistic reasoners like you as "debunkers" simply because we won't by every unsubstantiated, undifferentiated, unexamined piece of what-not as "proof" of your pre-conceived, almost religious belief in not just alien existence, but rather in this whole UFO mythology, from Roswell and Betty Hill to Budd Hopkins to Stephen Greer - not one whit of which is proven.

While I appreciate your post, I have to remark on your own entry, shown above. Again, it seems that some people get really defensive in friendly chatter. I can't help but notice that you say "People like me" and "get labeled by simplistic reasoners like you as 'debunkers ' ".

First of all, you have no idea what I am. I believe in things yes, but to directly attatch me to UFO's or Alien Existence? Seems a bit assumptuous.

Another final point: It is you in that sentence, and you alone that label yourself as "debunker". For I've never once said with my own words that YOU were a "debunker". My post simply calls out to "the debunkers". That you would label yourself one, is of no significant importance to me. I only ask "the debunkers" to share an experience.

Thanks

reply to post by XPLodER

my favourite footage is from the NYC ufo 13/10/10 incident too many people saw stuff airport closed

Airport closed in NYC?........on the 13/10?

I didn't know that, I personally thought all the stuff posted on 13/10 was highly subjective........but you claim an airport was closed, could I ask which one?

If an airport was closed in NYC on 13/10 due to lights in the sky,then I just may change my stance a little!

reply to post by Argyll


Do you have an event you'd like to share Argyll?

reply to post by Argyll


The webcam that people were watching here, the night of 10/13/2010, was pointed in the direction of an airport. There are three airports that I know of around New York. The lights that people in that thread were seeing was the takeoff patterns and landing planes circling.
Even when Phage presented the site with all the flight plans and schedules of that airport, they didn't buy it and kept insisting the webcam was picking up UFOs instead.
After midnight, there was a lull in flights. That might be where the "airport got closed" comes from.
Not sure what the thread title was ...

reply to post by Shikamaru


What is your event?
Or maybe there isn't one, not trying to presume.

reply to post by Chamberf=6



Yea I read all that at the time............but no airports actually closed though?

reply to post by Shikamaru


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