WikiLeaks - Iraqi War Logs - Bunch of Hype

Seriously - why is everyone trying to be so "outraged" by this stuff?

This is the most over-sensationalized bunch of crap. I'm not trivializing the deaths of thousands - I'm calling out the B.S. flag on the importance and "heroic" actions of WikiLeaks and this whole attention whoring circus.

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If you're one of the people running around all up in arms about what is being released in the "400,000" documents, ask yourself some very honest questions:

1. Did this information change your perception of the war in Iraq - or simply "confirm" what you already thought?
   
2. Before this "leak' were you under the assumption that "torture", and "civilian deaths" didn't happen?
   
3. Other than pulling at your hair on a message board - what are you going to do about it?
   
4. Who is to blame?
   
5. Do you think war can be fought "humanely"?
   
6. What could have been done differently? What would have been the result?
   
7. Why do you think this happened?
   

When you get to the bottom of that list - remember that the people that have comitted these "war crimes" are regular people just like you. They have moms and dads, brothers and sisters, high school sweethearts, wives and husbands, kids....

These aren't brainwashed evil androids.

The people giving the orders - same thing. They're regular people with hopes and dreams and lives completely outside of the military.

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Our nation (the United States) was founded on some pretty brutal tactics. The American Indians before them were some pretty brutal people - to each other.

The Europeans were brutal to one another through centuries of warfare.

African tribes were vicious and still are to this day.

War never changes. It's a dirty and brutal thing. There is senseless violence and horrifying things that are intrinsically part of war.

The Untied States is no more "guilty" of war crimes than all of humanity.

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Wikileaks - and more importantly - Julian Assange is nothing more than media hyped attention whores. They're not exposing things that people didn't already know for the "good of mankind" or "justice". They're seeking attention, accolades, and a financial windfall.

Is knowing the details of something you already were aware of suddenly make it any better or worse?

War sucks... it's a nasty and terrible business that destroys our humanity. You want someone's head on a plate? Start with yourself - because we're all part of the problem.

I'll leave you with quote:

Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love...

-Martin Luther King, Jr - 1958

So where do you go from here? Who blinks first? Who offers the hand of friendship first? Are you willing to forgive and move forward? If not - how can you expect anyone else to back down?

I promise you this - every man and woman who had a hand in the evils you're outraged about has already paid a price larger than anything you - in your self righteous judgment - could hand out. Things like this don't leave a person undamaged.

Originally posted by gncnew

Is knowing the details of something you already were aware of suddenly make it any better or worse?

Very interesting point in relation to Wikileaks. If you're away on a trip in the woods and you want to find out how your football team went you would call up a friend and only have enough battery life to hear him tell you that they won. Even though you can't call him for the details, you want to know very badly. You want to know the score, who scored the most, who played the worst and the best, all the nitty gritty you can get your hands on. Why? Because when people are fascinated by things they will seek to fulfill that urge to surround themselves with that thing as best they can. You finding out who scored the most points in the game doesn't really make a difference, you know your team won, that's all that counts, right? These 'leaks' satisfy people's urges to know as much as possible, even if it won't make a difference to them either way.

At some time or another after all the hype is over about wikileaks that
this is no WE GOTCHA FILES. You can go over the iraq files and there is NOTHING new
anything that is of any vaulue the insurance files has been kept
if assange wasn't scared of his own life he would release them
the government got what they want holding assange by the gut
and assange only has if they rid him of the world is the insurance files
everything can be covered up with a little slick talk and money.

PS. beautiful post

reply to post by gncnew


I highly doubt that anyone from the Bush Administration actually feels bad about their hand in the current wars. Bush thinks that it is a great crusade, and the rest are to busy to think about what is actually going on. Religious wacks always use war to push some sort of agenda. The republican party all seem to be a bunch of uncle sammies.

Originally posted by cbaskins
reply to post by gncnew

 

I highly doubt that anyone from the Bush Administration actually feels bad about their hand in the current wars. Bush thinks that it is a great crusade, and the rest are to busy to think about what is actually going on. Religious wacks always use war to push some sort of agenda. The republican party all seem to be a bunch of uncle sammies.

I promise you that Bush, along with everyone else that was in a decision making processes has to deal with demons related to the wars.

Ordering young men and women to their death, and ordering the death of others is not something you get to do for free...

And this isn't a political ideology - this is a human trait. Republicans and Democrats alike have made orders that have cost the lives of thousands.

Look deeper than party lines - that's just surreptitious garbage. "Religious wacks" don't use war to push agendas - you're trying to use lables and judgements on things to dilute the problem.

You - and everyone else - demand wars. We demand justices and freedoms, we demand profits and progress, we demand liberations and captivity.

The reasoning and justifications change - but war NEVER does - and neither does our insatiable need for it.

Originally posted by cbaskins
I highly doubt that anyone from the Bush Administration actually feels bad about their hand in the current wars.

True. I"m seeing no remorse from them OR from the Obama administration for their escalation and surges. Either they have nothing to feel bad about because it was the best thing for America, or they do have something they should feel bad about and they just simply don't care. Either way ... Bush43 and Obama ... both are up to their eyeballs in it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by cbaskins
I highly doubt that anyone from the Bush Administration actually feels bad about their hand in the current wars.

True. I"m seeing no remorse from them OR from the Obama administration for their escalation and surges. Either they have nothing to feel bad about because it was the best thing for America, or they do have something they should feel bad about and they just simply don't care. Either way ... Bush43 and Obama ... both are up to their eyeballs in it.

Hmmm, interesting. So every action you've taken in your life that haunts you today you regularly and publicly show remorse for?

I find it curious that you are so supremely qualified to gauge someone's inner feelings of guilt and/or remorse from such a large distance....

reply to post by gncnew
Perhaps this phrasing will make you happier.

There appears to be no remorse from either the Bush administration or the Obama administration. When people regret things they try to make amends. They apologize. They change direction. No such action has taken place from either administration. In fact, Bush 43 goes out of his way to justify his actions and Obama escalates and surges the war.

Happy?

reply to post by FlyersFan



Bush "43" goes to visit wounded soldiers, still does. He sends hand-written letters to mothers of fallen soldiers. He goes to funerals, still does. Heck, he was just at a VA hospital earlier this month.

What? You didn't know this? Mmmm, I wonder why the MSM doesn't care to ever report on these visits, calls, letters that are still happening today? You think the current President would ever EVER do anything humane, without first calling the MSM?

Bush does this consistently, and he doesn't brag about it, nor does he make a deal out of it. Not a 'deal' for himself, anyway. So, ask yourself, "why is he still going out of his way to contact these soldiers and their families if it's not for 'show'?

I think he has his demons and his own guilt to live with.

Originally posted by SourGrapes
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Bush "43" goes to visit wounded soldiers, still does. He sends hand-written letters to mothers of fallen soldiers. He goes to funerals, still does. Heck, he was just at a VA hospital earlier this month.

What? You didn't know this? Mmmm, I wonder why the MSM doesn't care to ever report on these visits, calls, letters that are still happening today? You think the current President would ever EVER do anything humane, without first calling the MSM?

Bush does this consistently, and he doesn't brag about it, nor does he make a deal out of it. Not a 'deal' for himself, anyway. So, ask yourself, "why is he still going out of his way to contact these soldiers and their families if it's not for 'show'?

I think he has his demons and his own guilt to live with.

Shhhhh... your disturbing their perceptions with facts.

I understand as an American you might feel as that as long as your conscience can handle it, it's okay for your country to do it... but as citizens we must live according to the laws of the land, just as governments must be in accordance with international law.

Maybe, you feel this is nothing new... maybe you knew all along the U.S. was violating international law.. Many people have suspected it, those anti-Americans were protesting it during the Bush years... of course torture was always denied... and body counts were also denied... but now we have evidence... and war criminals should be punished severely... it's the fear of that punishment that deters future war criminals.

The U.S. Government and its politicians like to play a game that they are untouchable... this attitude is destroying our reputation around the world. The whole world is watching us right now as we try to sweep this under the rug.

We can't pretend to take the moral high ground and also turn a blind eye to rape, torture, murder and 66,000 innocent civilian deaths.

After skimming through some of the 'headline' reports, I find it interesting how -complete- it all is. It's about as free of bias as one can get - a strangely welcome relief from radio, television, and internet outlets. Not that it will be covered in an unbiased manner - but you 'almost' get to be there, to see the same sort of briefings that get passed down. To hear the 'that guy' stories at ORM, UCMJ, and other similar briefs (the "don't do stupid #" briefs).

A lot of those 'headline' topics aren't all that secret or new - anyone who has been over there can tell you plenty of horror stories from what both 'they' have done, as well as what 'that guy' on our side did. We do stupid stuff, too - like any institution made up of people.

I ultimately find myself wondering what this kind of transparency is going to do to the conspiracy jockeys. I will admit, back when I was in high-school, I was willing to believe a lot of things about our government and military, even very grandiose ideas. I enlisted right out of high-school and hit boot camp with a rude awakening as to what the military and government were really like.

Similarly, I wonder how people in a similar mindset will respond to the reality of the war in Iraq - and the military, in general, as revealed in these documents. How many will claim it's another conspiracy because it doesn't talk about the TR-3B or secret Israeli plots to control everything? How many will claim it's incomplete? And how many will look at it for what it is - a rare look into the reality of the military and government (without having to be part of the chaos and drama by working in either)?

While I'm sure there is plenty of sensitive information in there that should not have been released - it is almost relieving to see the reality many of my fellow service members experienced tossed before the masses. "You asked for it. Can you swallow it? Does it justify your hatred?"

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
I understand as an American you might feel as that as long as your conscience can handle it, it's okay for your country to do it... but as citizens we must live according to the laws of the land, just as governments must be in accordance with international law.

Maybe, you feel this is nothing new... maybe you knew all along the U.S. was violating international law.. Many people have suspected it, those anti-Americans were protesting it during the Bush years... of course torture was always denied... and body counts were also denied... but now we have evidence... and war criminals should be punished severely... it's the fear of that punishment that deters future war criminals.

The U.S. Government and its politicians like to play a game that they are untouchable... this attitude is destroying our reputation around the world. The whole world is watching us right now as we try to sweep this under the rug.

We can't pretend to take the moral high ground and also turn a blind eye to rape, torture, murder and 66,000 innocent civilian deaths.

here is a cold hard fact you can carry around with you in your back pocket for the rest of your life:

War means torture, innocent death, horrific acts, and people acting like animals. On both sides, reguardless of the "reasons" for war.

This will always be, it will never change.

Originally posted by gncnew
here is a cold hard fact you can carry around with you in your back pocket for the rest of your life:

War means torture, innocent death, horrific acts, and people acting like animals. On both sides, reguardless of the "reasons" for war.

This will always be, it will never change.

International Law exists, whether we take it seriously or not.

We have been riding on a rhetoric of moral high ground, freedom, and democracy while violating international law and human rights, by allowing rape, torture and murder... and the deaths of 66,000 innocent civilians. If we don't investigate and prosecute our own war crimes when clear evidence is presented on the world stage, our credibility slips even further...

Is it pride that keeps Americans like you from looking at the U.S. Government with the same eyes you would look at another government? Are you aware that the U.S. and many other nations have a long history of condemning governments that commit war crimes and violations against human rights?

We are doing a good job of convincing the world that we actually believe we are untouchable, unstoppable, unaccountable, and above the law. This attitude is dangerous for our national security and not at all in line with the values we preach to the world.

reply to post by gncnew


It's not what I or we here at ATS thought or were fairly sure of. It's getting it out to the people that would never think such a thing. People that put full faith into our government and think everything that is done with their money and in their names is on the up and up.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by gncnew

 

It's not what I or we here at ATS thought or were fairly sure of. It's getting it out to the people that would never think such a thing. People that put full faith into our government and think everything that is done with their money and in their names is on the up and up.

Who? Who thinks that people are not tortured? Who honestly thinks civilians are not killed?

I assure only the most brainwashed could think that way - and some crap website "leak" is not going to suddenly give them an epiphany. These same type of people will think this is all made up or propaganda.

The "release" of this information by Wikileaks was intended only to generate funding and buzz about them to help line their pockets. It's used by people here and in other "forums" as ammunition to beat down the actions of one nation over the other.

This is just a bunch of self-righteous BS.

reply to post by gncnew


You calling it "over-hyped" is a DISGRACE to the 50k+ civilians who lost their lives while the US tried to hide this. Your ignorance knows no bounds, and your entire post is beyond tactless.

Wikileaks is GREAT because if they continue to uncover crucial information like that, people will have the choice of becoming very unpopular in the future if they continue to do "bad stuff", or change how they do things to being more correct and "good". I'm very much in favor of name and shame when it comes to politics/business, it's good for the people.

Also notice how Wikileaks just hands out information, NOT an opinion. They basically do what the main stream media SHOULD do. Instead we have the MSM increasing the amount of "opinion shows" and generally being in favor of one side or the other instead of being impartial. I prefer unbiased facts, but I understand if some people rather get spoon fed opinions...it's easier on the brain

Your comment that "people on ATS" are using Wikileaks information to "beat down one nation over another" is laughable. Are you seriously complaining about people using facts to criticize nations? And your problem with that is? You are essentially annoyed at people using their brains and looking at facts rather than accepting whatever PR message we get spoon fed by the mass media or governments.

reply to post by gncnew


This is not a baited question ! I am however curious about how many of these documents you have actually read. Admittedly it is not an easy read with all the military acronyms. Quite tedious to say the least.
Thanks

reply to post by spiritualzombie

International Law exists, whether we take it seriously or not.

I'm sorry, there is no international legislative, judiciary, or penal system. There is no international law, and no authority capable of enforcing it. You're more than welcome to try, and I'm more than welcome to find the attempt quaint and humorous.

We have been riding on a rhetoric of moral high ground, freedom, and democracy while violating international law and human rights, by allowing rape, torture and murder... and the deaths of 66,000 innocent civilians.

Where, in these logs, does it -ever- say 'we' allowed this?

If we don't investigate and prosecute our own war crimes when clear evidence is presented on the world stage, our credibility slips even further...

There is this document, known as the UCMJ, and there are people in the military with nothing better to do but cram that thing up your anus at the first opportunity. Of course, if you read the documents - there have been a lot of internal prosecutions and investigations into various incidents.

Is it pride that keeps Americans like you from looking at the U.S. Government with the same eyes you would look at another government? Are you aware that the U.S. and many other nations have a long history of condemning governments that commit war crimes and violations against human rights?

We don't like to make a public spectacle out of it. Soldiers in the line of duty are forced to make decisions that no civilian can ever relate to. Period. A person on trial for incidents occurring within a war zone cannot be adequately judged by their peers unless the jury consists of others who have served and seen combat.

I assure you, we unleash all kinds of rapeage upon our douches when they seriously screw up. You want to see how fast the military penal system works, just call a four-star "dude" in front of your base Commanding Officer. You want to see the military judiciary system in action, sign off on the installation of an engine that fails in flight - they will analyze everything down to what you ate for breakfast the day you performed maintenance on that engine.

I assure you - a substantial portion of those documents are or relate to inquiries and investigations into incidents involving collateral damage.

We are doing a good job of convincing the world that we actually believe we are untouchable, unstoppable, unaccountable, and above the law. This attitude is dangerous for our national security and not at all in line with the values we preach to the world.

Sorry we don't publicly execute everyone convicted within our internal justice system and exterminate their blood-line?

I'm not sure what you want, really.

reply to post by MrXYZ

You calling it "over-hyped" is a DISGRACE to the 50k+ civilians who lost their lives while the US tried to hide this. Your ignorance knows no bounds, and your entire post is beyond tactless.

And you're an imbecile.

Now that I've properly greeted you with a baseless attack on your character, I'll return to the e-brutality of forum-murder.

Wikileaks is GREAT because if they continue to uncover crucial information like that, people will have the choice of becoming very unpopular in the future if they continue to do "bad stuff", or change how they do things to being more correct and "good". I'm very much in favor of name and shame when it comes to politics/business, it's good for the people.

You don't have to read many reports to understand that the entire purpose of many of them was to analyze the flow of events leading up to and following incidents and recommending chances to policy.

We could make this all a public spectacle - but you've no idea how bad it looks on a job application when a background check reveals you were given a dishonorable discharge and spent time in Leavenworth. Not to mention, someone with a dishonorable discharge can never work at any company that has a government contract - such as McDonald's, Burger King, and a myriad of other places with contracts and agreements allowing them to exist on military installations.

As I suggested, above, we could hold public executions. We could build a large public stadium and feed them to lions, make them fight each other to the death, and a myriad of other things for entertainment. Then we could hunt down all of their blood relatives and force them to do the same.

Also notice how Wikileaks just hands out information, NOT an opinion. They basically do what the main stream media SHOULD do. Instead we have the MSM increasing the amount of "opinion shows" and generally being in favor of one side or the other instead of being impartial. I prefer unbiased facts, but I understand if some people rather get spoon fed opinions...it's easier on the brain

A business provides to its customers what they will buy. People want psychological validation, not facts and evidence. Media outlets deliver.

When people encounter entities such as Wikileaks - reports that verify their standpoint are glorified and ones that challenge it ignored.

Your comment that "people on ATS" are using Wikileaks information to "beat down one nation over another" is laughable. Are you seriously complaining about people using facts to criticize nations? And your problem with that is? You are essentially annoyed at people using their brains and looking at facts rather than accepting whatever PR message we get spoon fed by the mass media or governments.

Whoa, killer, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

How long has the 'MSM' been criticizing the Iraq war? You can't very well accuse someone of being spoon-fed when they disagreed with the general opinion and portrayal of the war in Iraq from the standpoint of the MSM.

Perhaps you should go read a few more facts, as you are clearly incomplete in your understanding of the content included in these reports. Sure - bad things happened. But so, too, did a lot of good things. And there were investigations into the bad things and revisions made to keep them from happening in the future.

However, until you stand up and sign on the line to volunteer your service, you really don't have a floor to stand on with regards to whether or not the public has a right to know about all of these details. You still have a right as a voting member of the population - but I can guarantee the numbers willing to volunteer for the military will decline if the matters of war become a public spectacle.

What you want is a reality TV show about the war in Iraq and all of the crimes and misdemeanors committed - turning every judgment call into a publicity nightmare.

I'm sorry - but if you get what you want, I - and many others - will discontinue service to this nation. I will not have 24 year old children with degrees in basket weaving bickering with each other in forums over whether or not I made the right choice in combat. If they want to see me fight, it will be in their back yard as citizen militia repelling an invasion.

reply to post by gncnew


I don't blame the troops at all...

I just blame the idiots that ordered an invasion on a sovereign nation under a false premise - not having any ACTUAL evidence that Iraq had WMDs...

It cost billions of dollars a day to keep in operation with thousands of dead and wounded troops, and hundreds of thousands of dead and displaced Iraqis.

Who's the one to benefit from this? Really...Indeed, some of us had the dis/pleasure of supporting this war, be it directly or indirectly...but we're not the major beneficiaries. We just get the scraps that fall off the table, before the economy goes to hell.

So in short...no it didn't change a damn thing about what I think about the Iraq war. And much of this is to be expected in war.