Originally posted by ofhumandescent
You are either a civilized human being and agree to abide by the rules (like the Geneva Convention) or you are a uncivilized human being and disregard
social agreements.
*Ideally* life is that black and white; good versus evil. *Realistically,* life is not. Like in Star Wars, when Anakin says something like "You are
either with me or against me." Obi-wan replies that that is how the Sith sees things. I only bring up Star Wars because you are portraying "You are
EITHER this or that." Life is not as black and white as Star Wars. There is no simple Good vs Evil. Yes, there is Good vs Evil, but unfortunately,
that battle, in this world, is fought in SHADES OF GRAY.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
Civilized order through law vs chaos & disorder through disregarding of law.
Again, LIFE is not an either or; it's not that simple. You/we are FREE because GOOD PEOPLE have had to do BAD THINGS. Don't gloss over that fact.
If you are in America, or any western nation, this is especially true. WWII was not a bed of roses. German infantrymen were mutilated and slain in
battles of horrific nature. These Germans were sons, fathers, brothers, etc. They played the violin. They loved, they wished, they had aspirations.
They were called to war. They were forced to kill by their officers, their government. They were almost mercilessly killed by allied troops. They
were stabbed. They were gored. They were blown into red, humid chunks and bloody clouds. Did the allied troops that killed them act wrongfully?
Are we speaking ENGLISH because of their deeds? Good people are forced to act in SHADES OF GRAY in order to protect people who are not part of the
fight. They must do terrible things, like blow other people up in war, to make sure YOU / WE are FREE.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
I have studied torture and the act of torture does not produce "information". Once tortured, the victim will confess to and say anything that they
think will get them out of being tortured.
Other people have studied torture, too, I imagine. I'm sure of it. It's pretty much a fact. Sometimes, torture has provided ACTIONABLE INTELLIGENCE
that has led to the saving of lives. Is this common? Perhaps not. It might even be rare. However, it might be a greater crime to take no action,
however distasteful, to save lives. Again, once war begins, most civility is out of the window. Sure, torture brings that person to say anything to
stop the pain. Sometimes what that person says helps save lives. Is it good? Surely not. But, again, sometimes GOOD PEOPLE must do BAD THINGS for
the GREATER GOOD. That is not saying you can do *anything* in an open-ended "the ends justify the means" statement. I don't condone torture, or any
"bad" deed. But, I also realize that we have our freedomes because there are special operations guys out there who put their lives on the line and do
"bad" things against WORSE people. If not for their efforts, we wouldn't be able to enjoy our freedoms. Thank God we have people who are willing to
do those things so we can enjoy our FREEDOM.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
God, I cannot believe anyone saying torture "in certain situations" is acceptable.
You can thank the fact that you are free enough to type that without the SECRET POLICE coming to your door to a LOT of people giving their lives for
our freedom. Those people had to commit UNSPEAKABLE acts of violence against other humans in bloody conflicts. Perhaps your view of the world would
change if you saw your friends being mowed-down by machine guns. That might inspire some strong feelings in you about who is good, who is evil and
what they deserve, and what you might do to save the lives of your friends and countrymen. I've noticed that people who have never lifted a hand to
defend their country feel QUITE DIFFERENTLY about what is good and what is bad when it comes to doing what is NECESSARY for our freedom and the
defense of our nation. From the IVORY TOWER of never having lifted a hand to defend any country, people see things as appauling and they are very
judgemental. From the TRENCHES, there is a different outlook. The hypocrisy is that there could be NO IVORY TOWERS without good folks doing harsh
things in the TRENCHES.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
It is wrong as is murder/war/execution/abortion.
Whooa. Abortion? While it is not something anyone wants, what if you were RAPED? What if you have a HUGE chance of dying during the
pregnancy/delivery because of HEALTH REASONS? Yeah, no one wants an abortion, but you can't just arbitrarily state that abortion is wrong. As with
ANYTHING in life, it's the REASON you do something that makes it wrong or right. If not having an abortion means the mother would pretty-much DIE,
well, then, thank God there are doctors out there who will do what is necessary for THE GREATER GOOD. Again, you NEVER want an abortion, but there
are specific circumstances when it is NECESSARY. Just like torture. You never want to have to torture someone. You really, really don't. Yet... in
some few circumstances... ESPECIALLY IF IT MIGHT SAVE LIVES... What is the greater evil... Not torture to get info, or allow possibly dozens or
hundreds or more people to die from collateral damage? This is not Hollywood programming. This is the world we live in.
Originally posted by ofhumandescent
No one has the right to torture or kill another human being.
Have you seen the news about that infamous home invasion on the news lately? Where the invaders sent the woman to the bank? Where she called 911
from the bank and the police didn't get there for almost an hour? Where the killers raped her 11 year old child, where they raped her? Where they
killed the other child? Where the husband was left for dead in the basement while they burned the house down? Do you think the husband, if he'd had
the capability to do so, do you think he had a right to defend his family with lethal force? Be careful before you answer too quickly.
Also, I shoud add that there are different degrees of "torture." Sleep deprivation is a LOT DIFFERENT than using hedge trimmers to cut off a person's
fingers one at a time. Playing loud/offensive music is a LOT DIFFERENT than inserting bamboo shoots under fingernails or into other body parts.
There are different degrees of "torture."
Personally, I don't think we should torture. We are, after all, the GOOD GUYS, if that has any meaning left in this day and age. But, at the very
least, we should be above the actions of "evil" people. If *we* can't be the good guys, then who can? However, the temptation is there to try to
extract any information you can from someone who *just might* know something that might allow combatants to save the lives of a mother and her
children. The question is, do you cross that line in order to try to save those lives, or simply take no action and cross your fingers that that
mother and her children won't be killed. I suppose that in war, there are NO GOOD ANSWERS.
edit on 25-10-2010 by GhostLancer because: Clarification