Abortion is morally WRONG

Originally posted by Xiamara
Very true, definitely agree. mothers body mothers choice.

And by and large, mother's responsibility. Sure, potential Dad should have condoms, that's what I preach to my kids BUT the bottom line comes down to the woman whether or not to have sex, unprotected or not. Be responsible at the beginning and this wouldn't be an issue.

reply to post by thecinic


Yeah man, we're sick us liberals, we're sick caring about birth-rates and it's relation to a stable society. So what if there's not enough food to go around for people, they can starve right?

Cool story bro, cool story.

reply to post by Monts

But isn't it the codes in our genes what makes us humans?

No, it is our mind that human rights stem from, not genes. Hypothetical sentient artificial intelligences or aliens with with different or without genes would not be protected under your definition. That would be wrong.

If fact, the way I see it, the reason we see murder as wrong is because it eliminates one's future.

I think the reason we see murder as wrong is because it causes negative inputs of physical and psychological pain and fear in the victims and other beings minds. It is not the non-existence itself that is somehow bad.

reply to post by intrepid


I'm actually the product of a mother being on birth control and a father properly using a condom. the pill isn't perfect and neither are condoms if you read the back they are only 99% and are you including rape victims and peer pressure?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Monts

 

Again, i'll ask you my simple question.

Do you believe it is right or ethical for a woman NOT to abort a child that she knows is going to have an awful life and that she doesn't really want, or a pain that she doesn't want to undergo?

edit on 24/11/10 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

I'll give you my simple answer.

It is ethical not to abort in this case.

First of all, as i've said before, how does the mother know for certain that the child is going to have an awful life not worth living? Can she see into the future?
What exactly makes a life awful and not worth living?

If there is a pain she doesn't want to undergoe, then she shouldn't have taken the risk of becoming pregnant in the first place. Why should the baby have to pay for the mother's mistake?
If I signed a form saying that a decision I made had a tiny, minuscule chance of causing me a whole lotta pain, and I signed that form thinking it wouldn't happen to me, but it did, would that give me the right to rip it up, especially when doing so would end a life?

If the pain becomes unbearable during pregnancy, there is always the option for a c-section, and as Jennybee said, babies can be saved at an almost ridiculously early stage of pregnancy now.

reply to post by byteshertz


See even with meaniful arguments such as this, they fail to see reason, to see a rational approach, whether religious or not they are blinded by their own ideas of morality and perceptions of what life is.

Pro-life always, victim gets raped? Pro-life, not the women's choice, pro-life, pro-life, pro-nonense.

Originally posted by Xiamara
and are you including rape victims

No, totally different scenario. Let's not deal with abstracts. We're talking about the mean here.

and peer pressure?

Yes. If you're old enough to have sex you should be old enough to know what responsibilities go along with it. My girls(15 and 16) do. "No glove, no love."

reply to post by Monts


Because

1) The parents may not be able to afford the baby.
2) The mother may be dying and wants to spend the remainder of her life with her husband rather than suffer the pain of having (another) baby
3) It may be a country where children are starving, and attention should be focused on providing for current children.
4) The mother could have been raped and may resent the baby, and not want the baby to suffer the pain of resentment.

These are just a few reasons why a woman might CHOOSE to abort a baby.

I will always disagree with you.

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by awake_and_aware

 

Very true, definitely agree. mothers body mothers choice.

Unfortunately, using that argument opens yourself up to a huge flaw.

Does the right to choose what one wants to with one's own body override the right to life?

If you say yes, then your logic is flawed, as the right to choice would not exist without the right to life.

If you still think the right to choice overrides the right to life, take this example:

Someone comes up to me, and says that all they need is for me to be hooked up to a machine for 1 minute in order for them to live. It will take me 1 minute to do, and there is 0% risk of any harm occurring to me.

I refuse, and they die.

According to your logic, I am not doing anything wrong, and am in the moral right as its my body, my choice.

You could even maximize that, and say that the lives of 25 people rest on you donating your blood.

Your body, your choice, so you say "no", and the 25 people die.

According to the right of choice, then you are perfectly in the moral righteousness.

Something seems a bit wrong with that, doesn't it?

reply to post by intrepid

No, totally different scenario. Let's not deal with abstracts. We're talking about the mean here.

What's abstract about rape?

This is just one of the reasons why people support abortion for circumstances like these. There are others, and they are not "abstract"

reply to post by intrepid


You can preach that all you want but as a young woman its hard to say no. We see it on tv in movies,commercials and we live in a sexually charged society. Not to mention there are schools out there which have conservative parents going no no we musnt tell them about safe sex that's wrong and immoral, tell them to abstain. Well I'm sorry but that's just stupidity to me.

I will repeat, EVERY woman has a reason why she gets an abortion. We don't do it for fun and if they never wanted the baby well they'd probably be a bad mother.

reply to post by Monts


I would never kill a baby. A fetus isn't a baby. What's your stance on the morning after pill? Does that fall under the umbrella of killing a baby?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by intrepid

 

No, totally different scenario. Let's not deal with abstracts. We're talking about the mean here.

What's abstract about rape?

Are you saying that abortion because of rape is an everyday thing? Most abortions are performed because of this? I highly doubt it.

This is just one of the reasons why people support abortion for circumstances like these. There are others, and they are not "abstract"

Right. They are because the woman wasn't responsible. Sorry, if it's the womans right to choose, she should be the one using responsibility, not abortion as an out to a lack of responsibility.

reply to post by Monts


How is that a flaw? If I can change something about whats going on I will. I can choose to get a heart transplant, I can choose to do all sorts of things to improve my health. And since pregnancy is an option, I can choose not to get pregnant death is not an option. Key factor, pregnancy is OPTIONAL death isn't as a well educated person I would assume you would realize that. Do not say its a woman's job to give birth it isn't.

Originally posted by Xiamara
reply to post by intrepid

 

You can preach that all you want but as a young woman its hard to say no.

Not preaching. Did you miss the part where I said I wasn't religious? As to what you said here, who said life was easy?

reply to post by intrepid


Preaching not in the religious sense... Why do you think I assume your religious?

Originally posted by Xiamara
Preaching not in the religious sense... Why do you think I assume your religious?

Again, not preaching. Logic. Take it as you will though. I won't change your point of view. Seen it many times before. I just hope the reader sees the logic that can be used on this issue.

reply to post by intrepid


what is this logic? that you can tell kids to do something responsible and its all a woman's fault if she gets pregnant?

If abortion is the same as killing a human life, how can it be justified in the case of rape? Can we also kill babies that are conceived from rape and born?

Either abortion is murder, then you CANNOT justify it, not even in cases of rape and incest since you cannot murder the child for being conceived from rape, or it is not murder, and then why limit it to only those cases?

I find the position of people who are prolife but prochoice in cases of rape and incest highly illogical and internally inconnsistent (hypocritical).

Originally posted by byteshertz
reply to post by Monts

 

What about rape victims?

This is a special circumstance, but I am still inclined to say abortion is wrong.
How is it the baby's fault that they are the product of a tragedy?
Again, the consequences and the negative energy are all directed at the innocent child.
This is a tricky situation, but, like I've said, it is NOT the baby's fault, so why should they pay the price?

What about where the child will likely be born with major complications?

Another tricky situation.
It depends on the complications.
People used to kill babies when they were born simply because they were blind or were missing an arm or a leg.
Whose to say that 20 years from now, there is not going to be a way to fix complications?

What about when a 13 year old gets pregnant because she was coached in to an unlawful act?

Again, why should the innocent child be the one who gets the kick? They could be birthed, or even removed very early in the pregnancy by c-section, and then be given up for adoption.

What about when people can not afford to look after a child - yes it is their fault to start with no one is denying that but is it right to bring a child in to the world you can not afford to feed, is it right to then just adopt a child out when their are already children needing to be homed?

Again, the baby is innocent here.
Up here in Canada, couples who are unable to have children are being forced to spend months upon moths waiting to adopt children, usually from other parts of the world, because every in Canada who doesn't want a child just gets an abortion.
There is no shortage of parents looking for adoptable children... especially newborns.

What about when the father has just died and you are no longer in a position to bring up a child as you are suffering metal depression as well a huge financial change?

Yet again, why must the child bear the brunt of the consequences? Why couldn't you simply put them up for adoption?

What about when your family has strict beliefs and in some countries may kill you or outcast you?

I'm pretty sure that if your family has strict beliefs against getting pregnant, they most certainly would be against you getting an abortion.

I've never heard of a culture that would kill you for having a pregnancy... but if one such culture exists, and their is no escape.
First of all, in such a situation, it will be unlikely you would even have access to an abortion.
Even so, unless both you and the baby would be killed, I can't see how the baby should pay for the consequence... yet again.

My point is everyone has different circumstances your blanket statement that it is morally wrong is what I consider highly arrogant. Granted, way to many abortions take place but for us to judge others circumstances is wrong - what is easy for one person could end in total breakdown for another, this is why it must be an individuals choice - ideally it should be a couples in a perfect world but thats another post - they are the ones that live with the decision.

My point is that in all cases of abortion, the baby is innocent.
There is not one single possible case where a baby is consciously causing any sort of problem; its innocence is without question.

The cases you state are all rarely-some if ever- heard of.

All you need to do is take a look, statistically wise at what part of the population is getting abortions.
Surprisingly (although I cannot find the original stats, and feel free not to believe me, but I assure you with honesty it's true), in Canada at least, the majority of people getting abortions are in their twenties, and they are getting them simply because they don't want a baby. Not because the baby is endangering their lives, or would be better off not living- but because the mother doesn't want to give up here life to her child.