I suspect reality is as follows, and I want liberation from it

reply to post by awake_and_aware


You said:

“Although, i admit science doesn't know EVERYTHING, religion knows very little, and because of this, it makes up supernatural stories with no means to falsify or demonstrate with evidence.”

Awake_and_Aware.

To me, the above statement has been offered [by you] as some sort of “comparative defense” of Science; seemingly presented in an attempt to counter what you apparently perceive as being an assault on your chosen field of interest. With respect to my own interaction with you, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to either “sway” or “convert” you to ANY belief system; nor do I desire to somehow challenge any premise which is regarded as the "Scientific Truth" or even the accepted methodology employed when determining that "truth".

The ideas I have presented to you are ONLY for your consideration as to their interest (if any) to you. If you find one or more of these concepts to be worthy of further study or exploration, then that’s a good thing. If you don’t seem to be attracted to any particular thoughts offered, well…that’s good too.

You see, Awake_and_Aware, my own thoughts haven’t been simply tossed as an affront to your beliefs; to be honest and as stated previously, quite the contrary is true. I actually admire what I perceive as being the dedication of many explorers when they delve into the “Scientific Doctrine” - their fervent search for logic, order and, yes, “verifiable evidence” is, to me, nothing short of commendable.

However, and as previously stated, my own explorations into Science tended to prove insufficient with respect to the measure of personal satisfaction I gleaned FROM those explorative adventures. It was as if I was “exploring only the stem of the apple” and simultaneously overlooking its peel, its core, its flesh, its very entirety. I concluded that I needed to view my “reality” from what I considered as being a more complete, more “inclusive” vantage point. But that’s just me…and I truly wish you well and much success with your own explorations and experience within this great physical adventure.

By the way, I offer the following questions for your consideration:

“Within the realm of “Flatland”, what manner of “verifiable evidence” could the two-dimensional scientists have sought out (or even recognized AS “verifiable evidence”) to confirm the validity of a three-dimensional sphere?”…

…and…

“Would the absence of “verifiable evidence” (if this turns out to be the case) related to the existence of the three-dimensional sphere actually confirm its non-existence and, if so, would this claim, this conclusion of non-verifiability/non-existence be "true" only to the laws and beliefs associated with the two-dimensional Scientific Doctrine?”

A Happy New Year To You Awake_and_Aware! You’ve given me much to ponder…and I thank you for it.

I also thank you, once again, for listening.

Mindpeace

reply to post by Mindpeace


Firstly, thanks for your response and kind comments in the last post; apologies if i have misunderstood your earlier sentiments or your stance.

If you don’t seem to be attracted to any particular thoughts offered, well…that’s good too.

I'm eager to lend an ear to alternative thoughts and opinions, that's part of the reason i'm here, as i imagine you are yourself.

I'm willing, perhaps even eager, to entertain possibilities and probabilities, i will listen to any theory whether it be the "Big Bang" theory or even "Fractal Theory" provided there is logic or reason for that theory.

Even as a sceptic, in some cases, i have explored the possibility that an Alien race could have engineered humans, but i will not claim it as truth, nor will i "believe" in it. I admit, sometimes the want to believe overides the reasons to believe. ( i don't know why i would want to believe that though )

As science is a great tool for discovering information or even knowledge regarding the universe, i trust it's critique, if it is agnostic in regards to the "meaning" or source of the universe then i have to humbly admit that i am too. We don't have conclusions yet. We have "theories" on somethings though.

I admit " i don't know "- And again i am willing to entertain other people's ideas and theories, but agnostic as we are, they have to remain possibilities, in some cases some logic suggests improbability (i.e. God is a bowl of fruit)

I do have, however, concerns with regards to "Arguments from ignorance", and unfalsifiable hypothesis and absolute moral objectivism.

I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Bertrand Russel's Cosmic Teapot anology regarding religion's unfalsifiable claims.


In regards to your questions/ponderings;-

“Within the realm of “Flatland”, what manner of “verifiable evidence” could the two-dimensional scientists have sought out (or even recognized AS “verifiable evidence”) to confirm the validity of a three-dimensional sphere?”…

…and…

“Would the absence of “verifiable evidence” (if this turns out to be the case) related to the existence of the three-dimensional sphere actually confirm its non-existence and, if so, would this claim, this conclusion of non-verifiability/non-existence be "true" only to the laws and beliefs associated with the two-dimensional Scientific Doctrine?”

Brilliant question, and this ties in with what i wrote above;

Unfalsifiable hypothesis, is an unprovable "theory", it can't be physically demonstrated but NOT necessarily false(or true), and not always irrational.

Science can develop theories of dimensions the same way science develop theories such as the multiverse theory, Using information and maths to rationalise what we experience. I am certainly no scientist and i'm afraid i claim to know the maths or the means by which these theories were formed.

The great Carl Sagan had a concern with the "argument from ignorance" concept because like i said, unfalsifiable hypothesis does not necessarily mean it is false. The more rational a hypothesis, perhpaps, the more probable.

Sagan stated it was "impatience with ambiguity", pointing out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

Again, you have to look at why someone is making a metaphysical claim, a claim that is beyond the means of physically testing, Science aims to rationalise the universe. Of course, maybe there is a great reality of which we all apart that we don't yet understand, levels of reality that are not plain to the eye.

Science is always at the brink of the "known" for what it does not know, it can theorise.

Metaphysical claims such as "afterlife" and "heaven" and "hell" seem to be wishful rather than rational.

Thanks again for your kind sentiments and eloquent words. Pleasure to discuss ideas.

Peace and a Happy New Year too!

A&A

Originally posted by Khurzon

Originally posted by dn4cer2000
reply to post by schuyler

 

It is my belief that when the body dies, the mind dies (since it cant live without the body) hence the ego dies, then we are liberated. All it's left is our consciousness.

* bows * with respect, I would debate...

You state: "All is left is our consciousness?"

So in this state, if you were asked. What have you learned?
You would not respond as you are only consciousness; which implies a lack of organized thought, or ego?

Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't ego what forms things like sentences? thoughts? responses? questions?
It calculates, tabulates, constructs, performs and creates things?
Does not ego recount our memories?
Cannot the Spirit retain memories, and in some more refined form, the ego?

You don't learn to drive a car so you can then walk to where your going...?

It is my intuition that the pure state of consciousness is the first form of existance we learn.
In forms such as...different forms of energy... and, elements such as earth, air, fire and water...

We then incarnate to more complex forms like bacteria...and so on...
Each becomming more complex, until we incarnate in creatures that can develop mind and ego.
It is ego that can detatch itself from the "whole" of the singular cosmic source of mind to form "new" things...
"New creations!"

New creations will lead to advanced technologies and immortality, which will free us from the wheel of karma and reincarnation...

The zero-point, etheric realm retains the imprint of your consciousness/spirit/ego, and melds this with the greater self...
You remember many other names and lives, but they are still all you...

As an example:
The ego that cried without shame at age 2 and was called "Junior".... is the same ego of the deeply compassionate adult of age 62 named "Senior"

Or.. like the caveman "uhnuhuh" who raged at the storm filled skies, who is also, later, "Carl" gazing in deep respect and admiration at the images from Mars...
Carl will remember being Uhhnuhuh, but is called neither anymore...

Both could "create" things, and now, his "greater self" will go on to create even greater cosmic wonders...with it's more refined version of all it's prior egos...

And creation is what it is all about, no?

edit on 21-10-2010 by Khurzon because: spelling

edit on 21-10-2010 by Khurzon because: changed:New creations will lead to advanced technologies and immortality, which will free us from the wheel of karma... To: New creations will lead to advanced technologies and immortality, which will free us from the wheel of karma and reincarnation...

I'm so sorry for my late answer. I am still kind of new to the boards and did not realize that when someone responds to my posts I would get a message in my inbox. needless to say It was hard for me to keep track of threads.

I believe you are confusing Ego with Mind. Ego does reside in our "Conscious Mind." Ego is your Idea of your own self based on your belief system. Is that part of you that says, I'm a Patriot, an American, a good person, a Doctor, handsome etc etc. Is your Identification system. The Judge within you, also the Victim and the thing that shelves, categorizes, labels the experiences on your life. Is the thing that gives the Illusion that we are separate from everything else. Whats the Ego's primal fear? The fear of dieing, the fear of non-being. Thats why it hurts when we percieve that our voices are not being heard, that our opinions dont matter.

Some peeople that have achieve the quieting of the Ego during meditation have reported that the first time, as the Ego is shutting down, they experience fear, as if they are dieing. That's your Ego that doesnt want to let go and will bombard you with images and thoughts in order to keep your mind busy.

Its not a bad thing, its not evil. It's a tool that we use to function in this world. So we can play our roles. But it can deceive you. It has been likened to the Serpent in the garden of Eden. As a matter of fact I believe the story of the garden is just our experience as children until the birth of the Ego, until we are indoctrinated (The fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). The child is in paradise. What do we tell them? If you do this you are a good boy, If you do that you are a bad girl and we create a belief system in them that is not 'theirs" because it was forced upon them .

Thats just my opinion of course.

reply to post by schuyler


I have waited a long time to reply to this thread, mostly because I am to lazy to log on to ATS. I prefer to lurk..it is quicker.
I think these same thoughts almost daily.

I know there is a purpose for us being here in this time and place. I know I have not yet fulfilled my purpose, otherwise I would not still be "here".

I want desperately for this to be over so I can "go home" and "remember". I hope when I do, if I ever think of coming back to this plain of existence, someone will slap me really hard....because in my opinion this thing called life really "sucks". The positives do not make up for the negatives.

reply to post by Wolftotem


Are you saying you are ungrateful for this life? Because if so, then that's a certain way of ensuring that you have to come back again..!

reply to post by schuyler

Whoever started this, You no longer have my support. We’re not the problem; You are. I want out of this pattern. I want You to let my people go. I want You to free us from the shackles of this cycle. If there is not already a movement with similar ideals and goals, it starts here. If there is, point me where to sign up. I am going to devote every ounce of strength I have, at whatever level, to break out of this hell You have created for us.

Just to let you know ... we created this. Creation is the inherent action of our soul. We create, individually and on a collective basis. Good or bad means nothing to our selves outside of this dimension. Spirit just wants experience.

So, if YOU want out... then get your self out. You created your life, you can uncreate it, too.

Collectively, if humanity, all at once realized that they are god also, this entire game would end, and you would have your sovereignty.

Originally posted by seamus
I want to urge you, please consider what I say. You are very close to realizing who you are. If you really want to, you can do it.

You are it, you're calling yourself out. When you are ready to take full responsibility for yourself, you're in for a surprise.

It's self-inflicted.

"It’s not."

It is.

You are ever-so-close to the truth. Just give up, realize that you can't and never could help doing any of the things you did, nor could you stop the things that were done to you. If God is logical (It is!) and existence sensible (It is), then you must have agreed to all of this before you were born. YOU have the potential to realize that you are a piece of God in the world, sent here to gather experience and bring it home when the time comes. If and when the end of your existence comes, there will be nothing you will be able to do about it, nor will you have to strain and exert yourself to make it happen. It will happen all on its own.

All you need to do to realize your god-hood is accept responsibility for all of your existence.

I suggest perusing roage.com and roage.free-forum.net. There is an abundance of information there on how you can become a sovereign; a bona-fide son-of-god-on-earth.

Let go. Accept. Judge not.

Those are three synonyms for love, and until you can think of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer without judgment, you don't have it. We are one.

Love,
Seamus

edit on 26-10-2010 by seamus because: messed up quote blocking

Seamus -

You are speaking straight to my heart and have helped me at just the right time and more than I can communicate right now.

Please excuse me for editing your post. I don't know how to put a link to your full post, but I think it needs to get bumped up to the head of the class for others who may have missed it.

Thank you -

Skylonda

reply to post by schuyler


Respect be to you

There can be no liberation from reality. Reatily is what is real. Liberation is liberation from untruths, from lies and delusion.

Buddhism describes a 12 link chain of being, and if any of those links can be broken, then the whole system is broken and transcendence or liberation is reached. So if desire and attachment can be overcome then rebirth will not follow.

I've heard of the idea that we are all part of god, or something such, and that we return eventually to god. If so, I wouldn’t be surprised if we have to suffer for "god" so that it could understand suffering.