Does Morality exist outside of Religion and Philosophy?

Excluding wars, crusades, jihads, witch hunts, etc., religion ingrains a sense of righteousness when it's practitioners adhere to the love, patience, unity, compassion, and other "positive" aspects of their religion.

In Philosophy, the thinker ponders life and existence. To ponder the subject with sincere devotion, one often concludes a better life experience is obtained through increasing "positive" thoughts, words, and actions.

In Religion, the "feel good" sensation is obtained through seeking and obeying God. In Philosophy the "feel good" sensation is obtained through inner realization.

Many a times over I hear the argument that religion is a ploy to subdue, pacify, and enslave humanity. With regards to Philosophy, it's not taught in the mainstream anymore, and considered an irrelevant waste of time by many, or even outdated.

Without a sense of religion or philosophy, the masses of modern time have no interest in spirituality. The focus... the concept of reality is a purely physical one.

If the focus is solely a physical one, how does mankind as a whole grasp "goodness?" How do we know it is better to love than to hate? To have compassion instead of murder? To be understanding instead of dealing in absolutes? How do we know it is better to cultivate "positiveness" instead of freely following each and every impulse? Etc.?

reply to post by Sahabi


you speak of being devoid of religion or faith, could there be goodness. is that the same as without a god or a divine presence, could there be goodness? the concept of being moral, or morality itself is somewhat subjective and relative most people would argue. a standard or behavior has drastically changed from 200 yrs ago to now, and the constitution hasn't changed,meaning that interpretation and relativity play a powerful role. if there was no criminal law, would people live by killing and looting (even though they still do)? no, because the aspect of retribution is there. you're asking for morality or a standard, whereas i don't believe in such things. goodness is what we want to appear to be. and following a moral code has to do with not wanting to be punished for breaking a society's more. yes, i believe that all people are depraved, and if there was no law, lord of the flies comes to mind. religion and government keep our depravity in check, mainly through fear. it is rare to do something for the sake of good, meaning not expecting any kind of recompense. how many people would give to charity, if it meant no tax deductions? how many would do charitable work, if they would not be thanked or given appreciation or acknowledged. you ask about "goodness". define your terms.

Hello Lawgiver. Thanks for weighing in.

Originally posted by Lawgiver

you speak of being devoid of religion or faith, could there be goodness. is that the same as without a god or a divine presence, could there be goodness?

No, I did not mean to imply that without "God" there would no "good." My apologies for the confusion. Does morality exist outside of Religion and Philosophy?

Originally posted by Lawgiver

you ask about "goodness". define your terms.

By goodness, I mean; Love, Unity, Compassion, Peace, Sympathy, Understanding, Patience, Trust/Truth, Mercy, Giving, Sharing, Helping, Caring, Faithfulness. Also, thinking positive through struggle. Focusing on positive aspects of people instead of their short-comings. Cultivating and projecting positive thoughts, words, and actions. Service to Others (STO) instead of Service to Self (STS). "The Golden Rule." Etc.

Would a fully secular and non-philosophical world have these above mentioned traits towards their fellow man, especially towards complete strangers? Please note I am speaking of both Religion and Philosophy.


As you mentioned, and I agree, many social norms and standards change with time. An individual's actions can be "checked" with mere laws or social retribution. However, can an individual's heart or thoughts be "checked" with the same mechanisms?

laws don't affect the heart. and of course, only that person would know whether their hearts are "good" or not. on the outside, no one can know. so, i don't believe outside of a divine presence, the heart can be made "good", even under your definition. i believe most people fool themselves into thinking they are actually good. but its better to be ignorant of the truth, then see ourselves for what we really are. that's why we mask it or even rationalize it. using drugs/sex/money to not think of ourselves as we really are.

I think that you may be underestimating the durability of religion. The collective innate need to have a 'belief' in something "Divine" or of higher power is much more ingrained in society than people may realise. I don't believe that religion, higher thought or spirituality in some sense is simply going to diminish and disappear over time and be replaced by logicism or an overwhelming presence of thought in physical reality, or what have you. Religion and belief structures will evolve and develop with the rest of society.

Some sociologists, such as the French sociologist Emile Durkheim, argue that religion functions predominantly to ensure social cohesion and integration and that this is promoted and maintained within a society by a shared devotion to certain specific phenomena, especially iconic objects (for example, the Cross, found in the Christian religion), concepts (e.g. God), and places (e.g. churches) etc.

So belief in a higher power or 'spirituality', as you put it, runs through much deeper veins within society and humanity at large. Individuals will always be compelled by the unseen, the unknown, by higher thought and all concepts related to this, and they will, in turn, share and discuss their thoughts and beliefs with other people.

Take so called 'primitive' societies, for example. There is lasting archaeological evidence that suggests some of the earliest tribes of nomads and civilisations performed specific rituals and adhered to particular religious customs, ultimately indicating that these people, some who existed over 50,000 years ago, actually practiced a belief in some higher essence or power.

This kind of thing spans time and space; it's unstoppable. And if one belief structure crumbles or falls, another will rise in its place. For example, my sociology lecturer once mentioned that he believes environmentalism will develop to be a fully-fledged religion within a few decades time because this is where society is heading at the present time, what with so much emphasis being placed upon acting more consciously when interacting with our natural world... We're already seeing a resurgence of Pagan and Earth religions with Neo-Paganism and Neo-Druidism etc etc.

In saying all of this, I don't believe that one has to adhere to a structured belief system to be able to perform morally. There are other social cues that indicate positive and negative outcome; people don't need some kind of dogma telling them how they should act. We're mostly intelligent enough to figure out how to behave in certain situations without having to consult a spiritual figure beforehand... Individuals, with the help of others, learn and develop alone, as well as together, on their own merits. We learn what goodness is and how it affects other individuals. We learn what happens when we act out against someone else. Besides I think we're supposed to figure these things out on our own. If anything, I see religion as a guideline; you have to make your own choices and that is the whole point of being here.
I honestly believe that our individual will to do what we are most inclined to do in our Earthly bodies originates from another place entirely. I'm talking about personality, personal taste, personal perspective, personal drive and ambition etc. They originate elsewhere and are shaped and molded here. But that is just a personal thought..

www.ctv.ca...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Touché!
You have nicely illustrated morality, sympathy, and compassion in the "animal kingdom" lacking religion or philosophical thought. Thank you

However, care to elaborate on thinking positive through struggle. Focusing on positive aspects of people instead of their short-comings. Cultivating and projecting positive thoughts, words, and actions. Is this only in the realms of religion and/or philosophy?

Here's an article that should be of use here.
Tell me what you think.
Aritcle here

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


Greetings Romantic Rebel!
I gave the article a read over, and it makes many great points in regards to Abrahamic religion versus morality.

However, it's basis extrapolated examples from non-Abahamic religions and philosophy. My OP is in regards to both philosophy and religion.

The main reason I created this thread is because on mass, on average, people are moving away from both philosophy and religion. Well, at least the people I encounter in my daily life and from what I observe.

A massive focus on money, material goods, outward appearance, and all things physical. I hear on ATS and the net of "mass awakenings," but in real life I just don't see it.

I try to find people (in real life) that this "mass awakening" speaks of, but I can not find any sufficient amounts of people (in real life) who care for or consider spirituality. All about the material, physical, and impulse. By impulse, I mean, giving little or no thought to their thoughts, words, or actions. I see more and more negativity in the world. People don't even smile or look happy in public or while driving.

So if on mass religion is being pushed aside, and philosophy is considered irrelevant or out-dated, what's there to help keep the goodness alive?

reply to post by Sahabi


Well I would be back online later. I'm exhausted and my bed is looking nice. As an Atheist I don't need a God to be moral or a good person in life. I'm more to capable on my own to lead myself where I see fit.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


I'm not saying "God" is needed to be a "good person."

1.) Religion is on the decline.
2.) Philosophy is not taught in main-stream America.
3.) Television, movies, music, media, and celebrities are helping to create a society of Impulse, Materialism, Negativity, and the Physical.



Atheists may be spiritual and/or philosophical. I'm not here debating that "Religious people are better than Atheists." No, no, no, no, no!

Forget for a second that this thread even mentions religion. Our leaders, our media, our society is not giving any attention to Philosophy or Positive Thinking. Without the helping hand of Philosophy, is the only thing left Materialism, Negativity, Impulse, and the Physical?


P.S.
I don't want to rack your brain if you're feeling tired. Hope you rejoin me in this discussion soon. Take care.

Originally posted by Sahabi
However, care to elaborate on thinking positive through struggle. Focusing on positive aspects of people instead of their short-comings. Cultivating and projecting positive thoughts, words, and actions. Is this only in the realms of religion and/or philosophy?

Our knowledge and morals come from the collective experience of humanity.

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. 

It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. 

en.wikipedia.org...

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Originally posted by Sahabi
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Touché!
You have nicely illustrated morality, sympathy, and compassion in the "animal kingdom" lacking religion or philosophical thought. Thank you

However, care to elaborate on thinking positive through struggle. Focusing on positive aspects of people instead of their short-comings. Cultivating and projecting positive thoughts, words, and actions. Is this only in the realms of religion and/or philosophy?

It is built into or hardwired into us.
As evolving creatures, all we can do is either cooperate/do good, or compete/do evil.
We instinctively do the one that will give us what we desire.
In this I do not think we have a choice.
Is that not what you do all day? Cooperate sometimes and compete the other times?
Is you perception of others not based on what you see them doing? Cooperating or competing?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Sahabi
Sahabi,

Morality is fast losing out in this world now, you can see it all around you, especially in high places. A fot of religions have nothing to do to increase right morality but some father immorality. The world is getting further and further from True Godliness. True morality comes from the Law of Love and it is only tn the hearts of those who truly have Godly love. All religions can be lumped under 7 headings and that is the seven heads of the beast in the Bible. So don't lean to religion for morality, go to the True God of Love. That is the only fountain and source for morality.

Truthiron.

Originally posted by truthiron
reply to post by Sahabi

 

Sahabi,

Morality is fast losing out in this world now, you can see it all around you, especially in high places. A fot of religions have nothing to do to increase right morality but some father immorality. The world is getting further and further from True Godliness. True morality comes from the Law of Love and it is only tn the hearts of those who truly have Godly love. All religions can be lumped under 7 headings and that is the seven heads of the beast in the Bible. So don't lean to religion for morality, go to the True God of Love. That is the only fountain and source for morality.

Truthiron.

How simplistically stupid.

Your same God of love is the one who created hell. A place that only a God of hate would create.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am
Greatest I am,

Yahweh must destroy sin and all who won't be part of Truth and Love or He wouldn't be Love. Haven't you got enough of it yet? Corruption is so thick and heavy and gettng worse by the minute as Satan is working fast now as he knows he has but a short time. KJV

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The time we are given in this life on this present earth time is serious business, the decisions we make are for eternity.

Truthiron.

reply to post by truthiron


Ya ya. Satan. There he is.
Shall I tell you what to do with your fantasies?

Regards
DL

By goodness, I mean; Love, Unity, Compassion, Peace, Sympathy, Understanding, Patience, Trust/Truth, Mercy, Giving, Sharing, Helping, Caring, Faithfulness.

Dolphins have exhibited all that in the wild and captivity.

Try to determine morality in humans is subjective to the society you live in.

A Muslims moral principle are different than a Christians or a Buddhists or Hindu.

And that is a adherent born into the religion not somebody that converts.

www.youtube.com...