Military pays $7800.00 to upgrade M24 sniper rifle! Now you know why were broke.

www.strategypage.com...

TextOctober 7, 2010: The U.S. Army has ordered 3,600 upgrade kits for its M24 bolt-action sniper rifles, which will convert them to the M24E1. This will turn the existing 7.62mm M24 rifles into ones capable of firing the .300 Winchester magnum (7.62x67) round. This is a more powerful round than the NATO 7.62x51 round currently used in the M24. The conversion kit includes a new receiver and barrel, a new scope, a new flash suppressor and a folding buttstock. The conversion will take five years and will cost about $7,800 per rifle.

I read this the other day and it struck me as being overly expensive especially for what they're buying,the reciever, barrel, folding stock,scope and flash suppressor.
I'm no expert but I know a little about guns and a real fine custom .300 win Mag rifle costs about $1100,minus scope but one of the finer rifles availble none the less and its a complete rifle for petes sake.

www.weatherby.com...

I personally picked the weatherby rifle for comparison simply because its one of the more expensive rifles one can buy. The rifle they are upgrading is a Remington 700 which initially costs about $600.


Length: 44.14 inches (112.12 centimeters)
Length of Barrel: 22 inches (55.88 centimeters)
Weight:
Empty magazine: 8.7 pounds (3.95 kilograms)
Full magazine and sling: 11.0 pounds (5.0 kilograms)
Bore diameter: 7.62mm
Maximum effective range: 1,509.26 feet (460 meters)
Muzzle velocity: 2,800 feet (853 meters) per second
Cyclic rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute
Magazine capacity: 20 rounds
Unit Replacement Cost: $576

www.globalsecurity.org...

Maybe they're putting a $6000.00 scope on the thing I dont know,hopefully some of the ATS gun experts will chime in here and justify this expense. I certainly want our guys to have the best but I certainly dont want to pay exhoberant prices for it either.

I think you should look into firearms a little more. A pillar bedded stock can run you from $200 - $2000. They are not using standard barrels they are using upgraded barrels. Also these come completely accurized. I guarantee these are not generic run of the mill rem 700's. The bolt assemblies are also upgraded btw. Don't compare these rifles to a basic off the shelf weatherby rifle. These things will run circles around a standard off the shelf weatherby.

reply to post by SpaDe_


Well that makes a little more sense untill you look up comparable,complete rifles that sell for the $3500.00 range,totally custom,minus scope. Admittedly the military could well be putting some very expensive scopes on these things and probably are but it appears they're still paying an above premium price for this upgrade.

You'd think such a large customer would get bargain prices not I'm an idiot prices.

www.randbrifles.com...

Again these are complete rifles,custom made and I gaureentee you these rifles will shoot comparable groups.

Yes I agree they use insane optics. The Trijicon acogs they are using now run around $1700 dollars with the upgraded red dot and magnifiers. If they use any of the higher end scopes out there that is probably going to account for atleast $2000 of the price tag.

The military requires particular testing, quality control, material handling, and other requirements. I owned a company in California until 2005 that worked on occasion for DCMA, which is branch that places and administers orders for the Military.

We built hammers that cost over a thousand each, however they were specific for use in nuclear silo's and had very specific requirements, non sparking, among them. There are many specialty items like this that give the Military a bad reputation. With this being said, there is a lot of waste in military procurement. I would not label this as waste, sniper rifles must perform in particular environments other rifles do not. It is money well spent.

When people glance at the pricing they may not understand the amount of work that accompanies each part, and that paperwork can equal or exceed the man hours that actually produce the item. If i need to pay someone 15 hours to produce quality control documentation, then that cost will be added to item cost.

Well it isn’t too surprising considering that like everything “military” it is overly and irrationally expensive. Hopefully they will use the current models to train in sniper school because the ones they used in preliminary training were literally pieces of rattling S—T.

Then again like has been mentioned these are certainly not to be confused with off the shelf rifles by any means as they are made to function in more extreme conditions and function accurately more often.

Still the idea of spending 3500 to 5000 bucks seems to make a lot more since economically and I wonder if it is really worth it when you consider that most of the counter snipers in the world are probably going to be using the Dragunov; Which like the AK-47 is one of the most abundant and reliable weapons in the world.
Also it seems counter productive when so many shooters can easily out perform the M24 sniper rifle (which is a far superior rifle where machining is concerned) in the same tasks and drills simply using the Dragunov. If that is the case then one has to ask….Is it the rifle or the shooter that makes the difference?

However having fired the M24 a few times the mere idea that they are about to make a great toy that much better gets me frisky, though with that heft ass price tag I’m still left wondering. I also wonder how much it will increase in weight.

reply to post by snowen20


While I have always been a fan of Remington and always will be,I'd love to do an apples to oranges test against these rifles once complete. I'd like to take the $1100 weatherby rifle install same muzzle brake/flash protector same optics/ammo and do a field test. I highly doubt the other rifle would outperform it by much if any. Granted I'd want the weatherby to be speced out the same ie trigger refinements and custom type barrel embedment but I highly doubt the M24 would outperform it by any discernable margin.
Its a well known fact that Savage rifles produces one of the most accurate out of the box rifles available,I'd like to call Savage and have them build three rifles to compete in this little shoot-out and see where the chips fall. I bet it'd open some eyes. I'm no expert but I've been around guns my whole life and there is ALOT of PORK in this little project.

Say this one chambered in .300 win mag,your telling me this gun wont compete with a few hundred bucks worth of tweaking? www.savagearms.com... I bet it would,I bet it would do well, at less than half the cost for the whole rifle. I'm looking at this model under center fire/law enforcement, Model: 10 FCPXP HS Precision. The link wont link to the specific rifle,sorry. Heres the specs,Model: 10 FCPXP HS Precision
Series: Law Enforcement AccuTrigger: Yes
Sights: 3-9x40mm scope, mounted and bore-sighted AccuStock : No
Magazine: Detachable box Stock material: Fiberglass
Barrel material: Carbon Steel Stock finish: Matte
Barrel finish: Matte Stock color: Black
Barrel color: Black Action: Short

Available chamberings:
SKU Caliber: Rate of
Twist: Length*: Weight*: Ammo
Cap.: MSRP**:
Barrel: Overall:
18181 308 WIN 1 in 10" 24" 46.5" 9.6 lbs 4 $2824.00

The price seems feasible to me...

Milspec firearms are vastly different from civilian versions.

Sub MOA requirements plus scope costs can keep these things very pricey. Milspec optics for instance have to hold zero after being treated roughly, dropped, banged up against things, and just from the normal wear and tear of warfare. The trigger is externally adjustable, the bolt and action are upgraded and more robust than their civilian counterparts, the reliability requirements, etc. The list goes on and on.

The AK-47 and other Russian weapon variants are popular because they always fire. I've seem em full of mud and they still rip. They are also cheap to manufacture. All of that reliability comes at a cost; though, they are also less accurate. An AK-47's grouping is not nearly as great as an M-16's, the M-16 jams like a mother though...

In the end it all comes down to personal preference.

reply to post by nickoli


I couldn't agree more. I seriously doubt that M24 or its newer brother is any more accurate than a high end sport rifle. Especially in the hands of a seasoned shooter. Then mod it a little and your still WAY under the 7,000 dollar mark. Hell you would still have enough left over to by some pretty bad ass optics.

Sometimes I don't understand, scratch that.. I have NEVER understood military reasoning because I think they have no reasoning. So many times while waiting in line at shopettes I would read the ARMY times and see comparisons for body armor and weaponry that outperformed military equipment by leaps and bounds but would never be approved. Why the F not I wondered, and still wonder.

In my opinion what makes a good military is its ability to be not only powerful but also efficient, when dropping as much on a new rifle assembly as this over five years one has to consider just how expedient it is economically not to mention efficient.

But since when did logical thinking ever apply to military budgets?

what i don't get is why the armorer's aren't building these rifles in house?
optics i can understand, but even then the prices are outrageous for glass and a tube.

there isnt one piece of that weapon that cant be machined, built and tested by the military.

its not like its a machine gun or any advanced weapon system. its just a bolt action rifle with a few modifications...WHOOPTY #ING DOO

float the barrel,proper head spacing, adjust the trigger. then learn how to shoot the damn thing.

all for the cost of the materials.

actually they should make the soldiers buy or build their own weapons, then there wouldn't be any waste after they went home

reply to post by aliengenes


Your talking about the same people who managed to spend 2,000 bucks on a new rucksack. That costs the average private who loses it 700 bucks to replace. common sense is something that eludes military accountants all together.

Anyway my point is that if there is a way to overcharge over price over estimate something the military will do it. They have some of the worst money handling habits that can imagined. Talk about mismanagement.

I wonder are these open bid contracts? I wonder were I to get the specs for these guns and the quantity I was ordering could I get a cheaper price? I gaurentee I can. Oh we can justify it in many ways but was this contract given to sealed bids with public openings of the bids. I highly doubt it,theres PORK here and if theres PORK here theres PORK everywhere in our military industrial complex and I'm the one who pays that PORK and I damn sure dont like it.

I really dont have the time to research this matter as much as it justifies but I'm gonna research it
some and see what I can come up with. Can anybody find the specs for this purchase? I'd like to call Savage Arms with the specs and see what they'd price a similar gun for.

Years ago I learned I could kill a deer just as dead, just as often, with a Remington as well as I could with a Browning, I just payed a few hundred more for the name. Its the same here,theres some pockets being padded somewhere,at our expense,on the taxpayers dime.

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by aliengenes

 

Your talking about the same people who managed to spend 2,000 bucks on a new rucksack. That costs the average private who loses it 700 bucks to replace. common sense is something that eludes military accountants all together.

Anyway my point is that if there is a way to overcharge over price over estimate something the military will do it. They have some of the worst money handling habits that can imagined. Talk about mismanagement.

oh i'm fully aware of the waste. when i was a vucan gunner in the army, we would dump thousands of unfired rounds in the north sea, so they could call them used and paid for. each round cost at that time $8.00 a piece.

i was amazed at the waste. any box of opened ammo had to be thrown out so it wouldn't mess with the accounting. and the list went on and still goes on to this day.

reply to post by aliengenes


This is just the kind of crap we got to stop,thats my tax money and I durn sure dont want it dumped into the ocean. Now I'm fuming,my federal tax withholding is a very large part of my deductions weekly and we do without,my kids do without,so the military can dump live ammo into the sea!


That is simply unexcusable,as a rebuttal to the military we should immediatly cut their budjet in half.

reply to post by nickoli


LOL Ammo isn the only thing they have dumped n the sea brother, how about multi-million dollar aircraft. how does that sit with you? Helos, planes and all kinds of fun goodies that cost the average tax payer a few good meals.

Anger, that's what happens when you stub your toe on something at two in the morning. What I feel is much worse.

Well I believe I need a job with the military,already today with just a few minutes work,I've saved them over $2 million dollars and delivered a superior weapon,its also complete and will compete.

Ladies and gentlemen the Timberwolf,.338 loupa comes complete for $7000.00.

pgwdti.com...

Although not always the practcal choice I would have dumped the lot and gone for the M107 .50 cal

I still smile whenever i think about firing it

reply to post by Yissachar1


The M107 is nice, but to damn big to be practical in all situations. unless you have a drag bag with you everywhere you go.

I once blew the back out of an old refrigerator with bolt action M82 on a range in Texas. All I can say is, thank God for rednecks! The dude who owned it let me fire like 20 rounds. Rounds that cost like 10 bucks a piece the rich bastard.

Speaking of impractical I do think the M24 is a little long, maybe they will crop it down a little.

Originally posted by snowen20
reply to post by aliengenes

 

Your talking about the same people who managed to spend 2,000 bucks on a new rucksack. That costs the average private who loses it 700 bucks to replace. common sense is something that eludes military accountants all together.

Anyway my point is that if there is a way to overcharge over price over estimate something the military will do it. They have some of the worst money handling habits that can imagined. Talk about mismanagement.

Yep, I've seen some of that govt waste money in action. A $600 toilet seat for a P3 aircraft. It was PLASTIC for crying out loud, just like the one you sit on every day. I'm prior Navy, so yes, I've seen the requisitions. The $1000 explosive proof hammer? . Huge waste of money. A $30 brass hammer is just as good. I've got a rubber explosion proof dead blow hammer I'll sell for $20,000 if anyone is interested.
The govt determines what their annual defense budget is every year, and they are determined to meet that budget. Why? If they overbudget, then their next budget will be drastically reduced. So, annual budgets MUST be over quoted so they don't come up short in November. Then it is someone elses job to make sure that money is 'spent'. I've known people in the govt spending field who were buying $1200 wiring harnesses and other clutter and warehousing it, just so the books zeroed out. So now we have surplus with no demand, yet eventually that surplus gets recycled into new clutter later on down the line (creating more govt contractors).
There are certainly things that are well worth the money, but the govt is not about common sense.
Much of the defense budget is falling into greedy little bank accounts so some dirtbag congressman can keep his brother-in-law working, or filling outsourced goods to fill the offshore coffers.

Originally posted by nickoli
reply to post by SpaDe_

 

Well that makes a little more sense untill you look up comparable,complete rifles that sell for the $3500.00 range,totally custom,minus scope. Admittedly the military could well be putting some very expensive scopes on these things and probably are but it appears they're still paying an above premium price for this upgrade.

You'd think such a large customer would get bargain prices not I'm an idiot prices.

www.randbrifles.com...

Again these are complete rifles,custom made and I gaureentee you these rifles will shoot comparable groups.

They don't need bargin prices when they are paying with our money...

they can buy whatever they want and help their friends companies make money at the same time.