Do american ATS members critizie american foregin policy?

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Metallic Monk

 

well as a european how did you feel about these events..................

First you must understand that Europe is not one country with one culture. Yes and neither is the united states. But a texan and and a new yorker have much more in common culturally than a swede and an italian. So it's easier for americans to speak for each other than for europeans to do so. This is my view.

the spanish conquest of the americas?
the french conquest of the americas?

The spanish and french kingdoms very truly despotic. Especially Spain. Their conquests in the americas were extremely violent and wiped out native americans in millions.

germanies conquest of its neighbors and the millions of extermination of its own citizens

This i can't speak for. Of course the holocaust was the most brutal mass murder in history but a modern european can't speak for the evils of nazism exept to say that it was horrific.

japans attack on the us, and china and the millions in asian and south pacific that died........

Yes the Pearl Harbor attack was terrible. This is also disputed if the U.S brought this on itself. You know the oil embargo. But i don't know about that.

how did you feel about the hundred years war with france and english fighting each other and killing......

This was before the Enlightment came to be and despots still ruled Europe. The U.S is based on enlightment ideas and has never as country been a monarchy. The U.S is a modern country and should know better. We europeans did wrong. Don't make our mistakes again.

how did you feel about the rapid spread of communism that led to the deaths of over 100 million people?

Well, this is of course hard for me to say anything about since I'm not russian or eastern european. But I have relatives in Finland who fought the soviet invasion. Believe it or not but I'm a quite a staunch anti-communist.

point is here im trying to make if you look in the greater historic context there is no nation on this earth who hasnt done something to someone somewhere else..........

Yes, but the United States has a chance to not remake our mistakes. Empires fall. We europeans are aware of it.

there is not one country out there that isnt without sin not one...............seems to be the favorite pasttime of many people of the world to self hate themselves and hate america.............me nope i know what has been done and i have no problems with it..............

But do you know what is still being done in for example Colombia. You know the reason Venezuelans elected Hugo Chavez. as their president was because they had no other choise. Before him the country was run by people completely loyal to the U.S. It made a small minority very rich and a large majority very poor.
Americans tend to know very little about history and the world around them. Like you have no idea how pissed many latin americans are at you.

simple fact the world i live in right now has all been shaped from conflict without it you and me and everything we know and take for granted wouldnt exist.............

So we shouldn't work for a more peacefull world?

and there is a price that has to be paid for this and if it wasnt paid i would cease to exist you would cease to exist................................

OK, here I have no idea what you're talkng about......

ask yourself what would the world be like if my country the us never existed at all what if we never done nothing at all..................

ponder that..........

The United States have done alot to bring the world into the modern age but that doesn't justify running around the world and dabble in everyones affairs and assassinate or overthrow leaders you don't like.

no matter what you people want to beleive the us hasnt done anything near the levels of past countries not even close.....................there are tons of you who will disagree with me............but open up a history book and open your eyes and read........................

edit on 10-10-2010 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Right....because the US hasn't been around for that long. Continue with your imperial foreign policy and make sure to hang around for another 900 years and then I'm pretty sure you will reach Englands body count.

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Thank you!

I was beginning to feel pretty alone around these boards.

I will say, I am proud to be associated with what America used to be. That is worth something, at least to me.

EDIT--
Thank you TrueAmerican too! Sorry, you posted while I was responding!

edit on 10/10/2010 by adigregorio because: Fast fingers McGoo

No where close to inclusive, a quick rattle of people who are fed up would be folks like Misoir, Jean Paul Zeudeaux, nenothtu, mnemneth, airspoon....i could go on. Look them up, you will find several with similar viewpoints that end up in similar threads to them.

I am very fond of Misoir. He is a Jefferson fan. Can't beat that.

reply to post by adigregorio


bully? are you 2 years old?

where were you when millions died for the cause of commuism?
where were you when thousands if not millions were murdered in bosnia and kosovo?
where were you when there were thousands murdered in somalia?
where were you when there are still thousands in not millions being murdered in africa?
where were you when there are still thousands in not millions that are still being murdered for the cause of korean communism?


yeah you dont want me to go on because the only people you want posting in this thread are america haters....

im not an america hater too bad so sad................


im not arguing with blind patriotism what i am arguing agianst is blind bigotry and thats what you people are doing here.

you people have a prejudice agianst america and for your own country that in itself speaks to the nature of this country anywhere else in the world you would be silenced.

Originally posted by neo96
im not arguing with blind patriotism what i am arguing agianst is blind bigotry and thats what you people are doing here.

Actually, I would say it is what YOU are doing.

America is a country, no better or worse than another. We seem to think we are king poop of turd mountain, for some reason.

Originally posted by neo96
where were you when millions died for the cause of commuism?

You mean the actors and actresses that were blacklisted and commited suicide due to the "Red Scare" here in awesome ol' America?

What about the Japanese "happy camps" during the second world war?

I know, how about when we shoved all the Mexicans out of our country back in the day?

We are not superior, other countries do not "owe us".

Originally posted by neo96
yeah you dont want me to go on because the only people you want posting in this thread are america haters....

Actually it is because of your faulty debating skills, but hey if you want to continue I am game!

Originally posted by neo96
im not an america hater too bad so sad................

Neither am I, though you must paint me as one for your argument to work. That is called poisoning the well.

Originally posted by neo96
im not arguing with blind patriotism...

Nope, you are arguing FOR it.

reply to post by Metallic Monk


so america is nothing but a despot is that what your saying?


the price the price of freedom? the price that insure that this country survives and its people are safe is what im talking about.................


ok you have no opinions on communism cause your not russian or eastern european then why do you have any opinions at all about my country?

your mistaken we did learn from your mistakes not to sit down and bury our heads in the sands because there is noone we can run to when someone invades us.

peaceful coexistence is an illusion it will never be achieved man is inherently evil so aint going to happen.....

really? hmmm this country protecting itself isnt justified? well it is.......



oh! imperial foreign policy thats rich that comment right there tells me theres no point in any further discussion.

reply to post by neo96


You have got it all wrong.....

It isn't haters of America, it is haters of the EVILDOERS currently IN America... and in charge

There is a very big difference, but I see people making this same mistake a lot and quite often...

People say "If you don't like it, then leave"

But the person may have only been condemning some harmful mandate or a harmful administration..

What bothers me about this subject matter is that other countires including my keep falling in line with the US and going along with them no matter what. Australia is a long way from the middle east but we still send troops there to "protect Australia" from what? people who have probably never even heard of us??

Australians justify falling in line with the US by saying that we need the US to protect against the Aisan hordes. This is a strong arguement with many Australians. The problem with this is that Australians don't seem to listen to what the American goverment contistantly and persistantly says which is:

"The United States will take what ever action it considers necessary to protect the interests of the United States" (not anyone else.)

This to me implies that should we be invaved by the hordes from Aisa, the US will first of all decide whether or not an Asian invasion of Australia; is, or is not, in the best interests of the US. If they decided that the US would not be disadvantaged by an Asian takeover of Australia, then they would simply allow it to happen and take no further action, despite the alliances that exist on paper.

But; still our goverment will not take a more independent line. We should not forget GW Bush saying after 911 that "we are going to after the badies and anyone who is not with us will be regarded as against us" ...something to that effect.

Maybe this is why we are in Afganaistan, perhaps we had no choice. Should this be the case; what does this make Australia? a friend or a lap dog.

More importantly, how do other counties see us? do they see us as a lap dog of the US? By blindly doing what the US goverment wants/tells us to do; we are making enemys around the world for no real gurrantee of help from the US if we were to be, although unlikely, invaded by the Aisan hordes.

cheers





cheers

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Metallic Monk

 

so america is nothing but a despot is that what your saying?


the price the price of freedom? the price that insure that this country survives and its people are safe is what im talking about.................

"He who would trade essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither" - Ben Franklin

What you propose is tyranny, not freedom and not liberty. Yes, we live in a nation of tyranny. The America you believe you live in only exists in the thin veil of the facade.

ok you have no opinions on communism cause your not russian or eastern european then why do you have any opinions at all about my country?

your mistaken we did learn from your mistakes not to sit down and bury our heads in the sands because there is noone we can run to when someone invades us.

peaceful coexistence is an illusion it will never be achieved man is inherently evil so aint going to happen.....

really? hmmm this country protecting itself isnt justified? well it is.......



oh! imperial foreign policy thats rich that comment right there tells me theres no point in any further discussion.

You are correct that it is laughable that we have an "Imperial" foreign policy. It is more like a mafia shakedown. One of the US Governments most prodigious leg breakers, Smedley Butler, admitted as much way back in the 30's.

But to use actions of people in foreign lands as a justification for war is even more laughable. Even more, to reference a threat of being invaded is as big a use of fallacy as I have seen in quite some time. Invading the US would be VERY difficult. And if it happens it will come through Mexico. So why are our troops in foreign lands, and not on our southern border?

You see, we are having these very debates at a national level for a reason. And you see the results. THAT is tyranny.

reply to post by neo96


Wow, you are really amazing at taking my stuff out of context.
I didn't say America was nothing but a despot. But you're foreign policy is very hurtfull to a lot of other countries. And to critizie american foreign policy is not to be an america hater.
The U.S is not perfect. It has it's flaws just like any other country.

Well I use the phrase imperial because there is no other way to describe the U.S policy in Colombia. The money goes from America to the colombian government to the colombian military to the paramilitary death squads. The CIA is aware of this and still keeps it up. People are dirt poor in rural Colombia and there are small rich enclaves that have sprunged up over the year. Modern cities for the upper class and the upper middle class. The rest are very poor. So they grow coca because they are not paid enough by multinational corporations to grow coffee or fruit. The U.S response is to launch a war on drugs and lately to privatize it by giving contracts to companies like Blackwater.

If this is not imperial then I don't know what to call it.

Is this Neo guy just a troll? It smells like a bridges belly in here...

Anyway- I'd die for my country- if that's what it took to make it turn around and be a peaceful, non-evil corporate run monster that minds its own business and takes care of its own (EVERYONE not just the rich).

It disgusts me what our administration is doing. It disgusts me that the people in the military follow their orders mindlessly. It's abhorrent that no one (civilian or military) will stand up to them and change it...when really- that's all it would take. There's more of us than there are of them. Even if they've got all the good weapons. There are plenty of mcguyver types out there

We're heading into the dark ages again. Religion, natural resources, and opium. Things haven't changed much, really. Just the names and techniques.

reply to post by Zoodie


The Game doesn't change, only the players do. And in this case the methods.

I would have to say I did not really criticize it until I lived overseas a few times and traveled all over the world. I think a requirement for anyone that is involved in the foreign policy process should be that they have a minimum of 8-10 years of Foreign assignment.

I think some of the best advisors to these policy makers would be Expats that have lived in the country. They could provide valuable input.

I feel right now we have clowns in the US running Foreign policy ass backwards. It totally needs to be revamped in my opinion. They are making Americans look like goons.

-Kdial1

My thoughts, I am English

I like America and Americans.

They have to get involved in other countries, because in simple simple terms...

A) Lots of countries treat their people very badly and are just plain awful governments, and need sorting out.

B) Lots of countries want to harm the US, for a whole load of stupid reasons and as the old saying goes, 'fight them over there, so we dont have to fight them over here'

Look at some of the Rogue Countries out there, and human rights, and democracy mean nothing to them, nothing. They will kill and maim men women and children without a care.
I have heard personal testimony from military personnel, about the horrors some countries think it is acceptable to do to their population.

If the US had not been involved in WW2, Hitler would have massacred millions and millions more people, and carried on his horror story throughout Europe.

I get sick of Anti Americanism - its a 'trendy' thing amongst some morons here in England. >sigh<

I wish America would use its military to defend its own shores and leave the rest of the world to their own devices.

I am not in support of foreign policies and feel we should be here on our shores and let the plunders that happen away from our shores as their own demise or ruins.

If aid is sought through proper channels then the choices made are soully upon the two parties involved not everyone elses decision

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by Metallic Monk

 

I am ashamed of my country.

I still love it, more or less, but boy am I ashamed.

I think this is exactly where we need to draw a distinction.

Our Government is not our country. Country is / are the people. The US Government is this "higher than thou" entity which seems to operate independent of and against the interests of the American people, or America itself. Whether its foreign or domestic, I can think of very few (or any) policies which have helped or benefited the American people.

I'm sure you've heard the statement "Its in America's interest". Its in our interest to maintain military bases in a 132 different countries all the while borrowing and going into debt to do it? Its in our interest to die and kill in pre-emptive wars based on lies? Its in our interest for a secretive organization like the CIA to assassinate and overthrow Democratically elected Governments? It is??? HELL NO. Its in THEIR interest.

And this distinction is DELIBERATELY blurred by the establishment. For example, lets take a statement like "the Iranian people hate America". No they dont. Arguably, they hate our Govt and its policies. And guess what, so do we!

Take this CNN poll for example:

Poll: Opposition to Iraq war at high

WASHINGTON, Nov. 8 (UPI) -- A CNN poll released Thursday finds that opposition to the war in Iraq is higher than ever in the United States at 68 percent.

www.upi.com...

What does this really say? The Americans dont want us in Iraq, the Iraqis dont want us in Iraq, so why are we in Iraq? Because the dictatorship that is the American Govt commandeth so.

So the President will make a speech justifying his actions to give the false impression that somehow we have a choice in the matter. So we will protest and debate in support of or against, but ultimately it does not matter. They do what they want regardless of what Americans want or whether its in America's (the people's) interest.

reply to post by Metallic Monk


I've read no other response so I am not jaded in my answer nor influenced by anything else stated.

As an American, it is my right and duty to voice my pleasure and displeasure with my government. I have met my Senator and Congressman on numerious times over the years to state my opinion, in person.

If the dumb SOB does something stupid, he'll hear it straight from the horse's a**(me).

If the guy does something to help me, his campaign is always open to donations.

I was a republican for over 30 years. I vote for the person now, not the party. I will say your using a broad brush painting all republicans. We have our share of demoncrats who are capable of extraordinary stupid acts and voting for questionable laws.

Don't be blinded by all propaganda, we still do good acts from time to time. They just don't seem to be as often as they used to be.

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by Metallic Monk

 

Do american ATS members critizie american foregin policy?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but yes I do. But what I think means nothing.

ditto that for me too
I criticize all the time
and doesn't do a bit of
good.

reply to post by gladtobehere


I know what I was saying, I am ashamed of my country.

This includes BOTH parties, government and people. For without one, the other would fail. (You know which.)

In a certain way I generalize about republicans. But that is because I actually share old school conservative idéas.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

The problem I see is that the neocons run the party now. They have in their alliance with fundamentalist christians
really twisted the values of the party. It is this relationship that liberals like for example Bill Maher bashes.
I personally believe that a paleocon wouldn't be so inclined to side with big business or go to war. I think that the GOP would be a more balanced party if there were more paleocons in it.

reply to post by Metallic Monk


While i may agree with some of what you say, consider that whatever "spoilage" you have seen in the parties has been done purposefully.

America is currently so embroiled over details and debates that are irrelevant to our future that one wonders if "Reality TV" may have spoiled our brains. "Pop culture politics" focuses on the daily trivia that is put forth on the 24 hour news cycle, while completely ignoring the real issues that impact our society.

One example: in my hometown in a chriopracter that is well known for treating animals. I had a doxy with a bad back, and he helped my little guy recover. He did this for no charge (due to rules surrounding licensure). He could have not volunteered himself. He could have not stayed through lunch 3 days a week for a month to provide this free treatment to my beloved Roscoe.

Roscoe has since died. This chiropractor has since been diagnosed with stage IV B-cell Lymphoma and was told to just go home and contact Hospice. He didn't accept this, and looked for treatment elsewhere, outside the eye of the FDA. What he found was that in Korea he could recieve Gene Therapy and stem cell treatment that was not allowed in the US.

I spent my lunch with him today. It is timely, considering this post (i guess...if you believe in coincidence that is). But he is horrified that US citizens should pay so much for medical treatment, and still have to go overseas to receive treatment that actually has a chance of keeping you alive (rather than poisoning you with Chemo).

How many people really stop to think about this? Yet everyone nods in approval that on Sunday afternoon we will see our NFL teams spend a needless $10,000 to wear a bunch of pink crap. Is this raising money for research? Not likely....the only thing left to research are new ways to treat cancer without curing it. The cures are there. So research is just another inroad to money for pharmaceutical companies.

Meanwhile, everyone believes that the NFL actually did something by "raising awareness". Really? Are we not already painfully aware of how badly cancer affects society? What more awareness do we need, other than an awareness that the American people have been scammed by the medical community?

We could go on and on about this. For example, everyone is so worried about the Muslim terrorists that managed to kill 3000 Americans in 2001. Yet we ignore the fact that Mexican terrorists kill 80 people every year on our southern border. They try to build a mosque in NYC and there is outrage. Yet when Arizona tries to enforce its border and protect its people, there are cries of racism.