The atomic bombing of Japan? Justified?

reply to post by dereks


Sorry missed this post from you.

I am not trying to rewrite history mate, just giving you the facts of what was said.

Did you read it all? There was discussions long before the first bomb was dropped.

VvV

Wrong, just some in command positions, many more in command positions wanted them dropped

reply to post by dereks


Can you please provide me with this evidence.? A link to where many more in command positions wanted the bombs to be dropped.

I gave you my side of the story, can you oblige and do the same please?

vvV

Explanation: S&F!

Justified? Hmmmm Depends on ones A-Priori POV.

[BTW the actual answer is NO! but I cannot be dispassionate about it, so I am completely biased and my evidence SHOULD be discounted regardless of its accuracy!]


Personal Disclosure: IMO [my POV] The war in the Pacific [WW2] was completely the US fault! Here is why!...

Lets have a little history lesson for all those bleating about revisionism...

Black Ships [wiki]

Gunboat Diplomacy
Commodore Perry's superior military force was a factor in negotiating a treaty allowing American trade with Japan, thus effectively ending the Sakoku (鎖国?) period of more than 200 years in which trading with Japan had been permitted to the Dutch and Chinese exclusively.

The United States Of America Incorporated were and are Empirial Bullies!

Here is the economics of the current why that IS freaking so real...

New study: US wars to cost $6 trillion (thread by oozyism , post by OmegaLogos) [ATS]

So 6 trillion U$D later and still no world peace, curing of world poverty etc... TRAGIC EPIC FAIL!

Curing world poverty alone over the same 8yr period of both wars would of cost a mere and measily 27% of that 6 trillion U$D!

The US doesn't get a hail mary pass on this issue and needs to stop bullying the rest of the world like Nelson Muntz whist telling us all "Stop Endangering yourself!" with their MAD nuke doctrine, as you make me as an ally of the US want to seriously take both Australian and Westerner from my Titles and then to smite your entire existence from the face of time itself!

P.S In no way was the above rant to be confused as being directed towards the OP'er or any other member of this thread and should be completely discounted as valid OK!

reply to post by VreemdeVlieendeVoorwep


I will post a comment later.

reply to post by Darkrunner


Hey, I wish the Battle of the Alamo had turned out different. Got any suggestions how to change history?

This is my most hated subject and I refuse to read any responses. I probably will unsubscribe to this thread after I put my thoughts down. Thoughts and words have energies all their own and by actively addressing a subject on a personal level through the written word it becomes charged to that person. This is why journals and letters are so important in the relationship of Spirit to the individual.

Our actions too are charged to us!

With that said I have this thought on the use of Atomic weapons on the innocent; this is the include Nature and her most cherished possessions, the animals, birds, plants and fish.

What you put out there will return one day, it will find the source of its origination and it will simply "come home".

This is all we need to know about our behaviors and actions in this Universe. Fundamentally America Murdered that day and fundamentally we did not gain any wisdom from it, we simply did what the scientists knew would happen. As if it were our privilege to do so! I am shamed by this action, but shamed more because I am a Human Being.

Last spring, I had an assignment for my English class. To go somewhere I had never been and write about it. I went to the Truman Library in Independence, MO. If you are asking if it was justified, you should really make the trip. Here is the section from my essay describing the section that pertained to the war and the bombs:

The first room knocked me off guard, and immediately started dissolving the moral standards I previously held. Before, when I thought of the atomic bombs that were used in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, I immediately judged our leaders harshly. It was a brutal act. Surely they regret such actions. Now, here I was in a room where the walls surround me with televisions playing black and white videos of World War II. In my lifetime, the only event my mind has to remotely compare to these devastating images is the “Shock-and-Awe” of the bombing of Baghdad during the second Iraq war. These videos, here, were beyond my imagination. I stood dumbstruck and horrified. My stomach churned as I watched our soldiers try to fight while moving through a labyrinth of dead and dying comrades. My grandfather was there! He lived this. The only thing he would ever tell us about the war was how bad it smelled. He said that retched smell would haunt him forever, and it did. Now I saw why. There was a video showing our prisoners of war in the hands of the Japanese Army. Starved and decaying, they were being bullied and stabbed to death seemingly to merely entertain their captors. They showed the landscape after an air raid. The buildings had become piles of gravel propping up burned bicycles, charred human remains, and other reminders that it once was a large city. The next television showed interviews with Albert Einstein, and the testing of the first nuclear bomb at the Trinity test sight. All these TV’s were set into a wall that was adorned with before and after birds eye photographs of Nagasaki: The second city attacked with an atom bomb. Across the room, the walls were filled with quotes. The most impressive to me, was a stand that held letters to and from President Truman about his use of the bombs. In response to Samuel McCrea Cavert, Secretary for Federal Council of the Churches of Christ, the president eloquently explains his decision. “When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true.” Those words rang true to me. That fact shook me to the core. In that room, I came to understand the choices he had in front of him. At that point when President Truman had to make his decision, 70 million lives had already been lost to World War II. The bombs that he decided to drop killed approximately 179,000 people, but the war came to a screeching halt in less than a week. How many millions of lives were saved? I realized that I would have done the same thing, if put in his situation. I wonder if the weightiness of that realization is why no one ever talks about this area of the museum past the Oval office.


If you want facts on this time period, this is the place to go. They lay all the FACTS out there for you to see. Im glad I had the assignment. Had I not, I would never had gone to the museum. It is my opinion that every American should go see the Truman library. After being there, I believe those years when Truman held office were as defining as the years our country was created.

reply to post by mrsdudara


Bottom line: the Japanese sure were sorry for attacking Pearl Harbor. And for the Bataan Death March. And for bombing Manchurian children like they did. Yep, Japanese learned their lesson. Bottom line. No more need be considered.

US First with Atom Bombs

reply to post by Darkrunner

Darkrunner
After a recent discussion with a friend about this very topic, I have to ask. Was it justified? I questioned his outrage over the loss of Japanese civilians, and asked where his outrage was about the estimated 500,000 civilians (among them women and children) that died during allied bombing raids over Germany towards the end of the war. Are the loss of their lives any more regrettable?

The hotly debated firestorm bombing of Dresden Germany on February 13-15, 1945, has been criticized as “useless” and “unnecessary.” Dresden was a medium size city noted for its precision manufacturing. It was argued Dresden’s output would not have mattered in the final outcome of the war. VE Day was May 8, 1945.

There’s no doubt the bombing was an intentional act on the Brits and US side. However, it was by no means certain in February that the war would end in May. Rule: You can’t slow down as you approach the finish line. See Note 1. Until very recently estimates of deaths ran as high as 250,000. Earlier this year, 2010, the Dresden City Council ordered a review of the casualty situation. That review arrived at a death toll range of low, 22,700 up to high of 25,000. That’s official. en.wikipedia.org...

artistpoet
Japan wanted to surrender at least 3 months before the atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki All the major cities in japan were already reduced to rubble - They were not allowed to surrender because the USA and others wanted to test their new super weapon out and had reserved Nagasaki as the test ground. That is why people in Nagasaki could not explain why the conventional bombing planes always passed over and left them unscathed.

I don’t accept the “3 month” story if it is told to imply we, the US, purposely prolonged the war for time to test the atom bombs on people and cities.

Less than serious negotiations had been going on, that is true. But our strident “unconditional surrender” demand was met with equal stubbornness on their part. Meanwhile, intel revealed Japan was making preparations to defend the 4 main Home Islands to the last man, woman and child. For our part, we had ordered 1 million body bags and thought our KIA might run as has as 500,000.

The initial invasion called for landing 500,000 soldiers on Kyushu, the southern island most distant from Tokyo and the least well defended. Another 500,000 soldiers was to land on the big island of Honshu about 75miles north of Tokyo. The US was moving 3 million soldiers towards Japan planning for a November 1945 invasion.

We had only 2 atom bombs remaining. Little Boy (U) and Fat Man (Pu). nuclearweaponarchive.org... The Trinity (Pu) test bomb set off on July15. It was the second plutonium bomb. The engineers had some doubts about the plutonium bomb detonating and so the test, but they were confident the uranium bomb would go off as planned. Aside: Uranium was made at Oak Ridge, TN, and the plutonium at Hanford, WA. The bombs were assembled in Los Alamos, NM. See Note 2.

No president of the United States could forego using the ultimate weapon on a hated enemy about to die to the last man as the Japanese had repeatedly done island by island. We knew that was no empty threat. There was never any doubt that Truman would not use that weapon to end the war. Bomb 1 on August 6, bomb 2 on August 9, surrender on August 15. Documents signed September 2. And we had a peaceful occupation. No American soldier was killed by any Japanese after the war ended.

Romantic_Rebel
Japanese really did a number on other cultures and their soldiers were great fighters. One thing enabled the U.S. above all other nations at the time; which was nuclear weapons. President Truman figured he would use the weapon. Not just because of the destruction, but to scare the Japanese into giving up.

Absolutely! And also, this sent a lesson to Marshal Stalin! Based on the Soviet secret police, the NKVD, and the Red Army’s widespread misconduct in the Eastern European nations - Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and Yugoslavia - and in the Baltic states - Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - plus the USSR occupying the northern half of Iran and backing China’s Mao Zedong Army to the hilt. We anticipated trouble with the Soviets after the war. By 1948, the Soviets had 3 million men in the Red Army and we had about 750,000 world-wide in the US Army. Great Britain, France, West Germany, Italy were broke. Those days sometimes looked bleak. But we persevered and we prevailed.

Note 1. Jockey Bill "Willie the Shoe" Shoemaker won four Kentucky Derbies. He saddled up from 1949 through 1990, setting a standard for jockeys. He amassed 8,833 wins. In 1957, a riding mistake forever attached an asterisk to his otherwise top notch career.

A moment of lost concentration overcame him and created a Kentucky Derby memory still talked about. Riding the favorite Gallant Man, but pressed close down the stretch by the ultimate winner Iron Liege, just a length from the finish line Shoemaker stood up in the stirrups which signaled to the horse “turn it off, the race is over.” But as Yogi Berra famously said “it ain’t over till it’s over.” Iron Liege won the race by a nose which but for the error, he would have lost by a head! www.suite101.com...

Note 2. Before we proved by doing it that making an atomic bomb was possible, I dispute that either Germany or Japan could have made an atomic bomb within 10 to 20 years. After we proved it could be done, or course it will not take any country so long.

My main reason for this statement is: The US used 10% of all the electricity in this country for 2 years to refine and enrich the uranium (No. 92) and to make plutonium which is a man-made element (No. 94). TVA at Oak Ridge, Bonnevlle Dam at Hanford. America produced about 4 times the electricity of Germany and 6 times the electrically of Japan in that era. Our 10% would have been 40% of all Germany’s electricity, and 60% of all Japanese electricity. Neither country could have done that and still produced war goods. Case closed.

reply to post by Darkrunner
Morally, that's a veritable minefield. But, humanistically, you only need to address the suffering inflicted upon US and European soldiers during that conflict. As to WHERE the bombs were dropped, well, that's another subject altogether.

The murder is innocents is NEVER justified and war is never a good thing no matter what angle you look at it. Countries may be drawn into war because they have no choice but this in no way justfies it.

Using the atom bomb against civilian populations is the worse crime against humanity that can ever be committed. Unfortunately (in my view) anyone who thinks using an atomic bomb against a civilian population can be justifed in any small way are less than human.

Just ask yourself this - If an atomic bomb was used against your country would you feel that such action is wrong? How would you feel if people started thinking that the bombing of your country was justifed?

My post is only to get you thinking about the bigger picture of things and not single it down to one example in history.

Originally posted by Darkrunner

Originally posted by artistpoet

Originally posted by Darkrunner
After a recent discussion with a friend about this very topic, I have to ask. Was it justified?

I questioned his outrage over the loss of Japanese civilians, and asked where his outrage was about the estimated 500,000 civilians (countless among them women and children) that died during allied bombing raids over Germany towards the end of the war. Are the loss of their lives any more regrettable?

I think of General Sherman's quote from the American civil war:

"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over."

What do you think?

I don't think the German civilians or Italian citizens are somehow worthy of any less outrage than we have about the Japanese citizens.

Japan wanted to surrender at least 3 months before the atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki (excuse spelling)
All the major citys inJapan were alreadt reduced to rubble - They were not allowed to surrender because the USA and others wanted to test their new super weapon out and had reserved Nagasaki as the test ground. That is why people in Nagasaki could not explain why the conventional bombing planes always passed over and left them unscathed. It would be another 3 months before the project was put into action - For futher info read up about The Manhatten Project
Regards artistpoet

edit on 7-10-2010 by artistpoet because: typos

I agree. War is hell. But the cities of Germany were leveled by Allied bombers, with children in the streets crying for their mothers who were dead. Industrial centers, civilian centers, shipping ports..

I guess my point is, why is the loss of Japanese civilians somehow worse than the life lost in Germany or Italy somehow not worthy of equal outrage?

I dont think its about being more concerned with Japanese citizens as it is that most people arent even AWARE of the degree of allied bombing of civillian infrastructure in Europe/

Most people dont know, never been told...

OINK! OINK! JUST WHO ARE THE INNOCENTS?

reply to post by Traydor

Using the atom bomb against civilian populations is the worse crime against humanity that can ever be committed. Unfortunately (in my view) anyone who thinks using an atomic bomb against a civilian population can be justifed in any small way are less than human.

It was also suggested that the US could have starved the Japanese into submission. We had sunk every vessel they had over 500 tons displacement. That’s so small it is often called a “coastal freighter.” Meaning it was not seaworthy to ply the “high seas.” Japan had for a long time been a net food importer. Japan had acquired Formosa (Taiwan) from China in 1895. It was their main supplier of rice.

Okinawa was another source of rice for the main islands bu it was by then in American hands. From 1944 onward, Japan had imposed strict calorie limits on its population. It matters not how much you love a child it is always the weak who expire first in times of famine. And Japan was in the early stages of a national famine.

Japan had almost no petroleum reserves. Unlike Germany Japan had not developed the coal to oil process beyond the laboratory. Unlike Germany, one-half of the urban Japanese population lived in wood and paper houses.

The Western tradition for killing women, old men and children in war goes back as far as Joshua. Acting on orders from Jehovah, he was told to kill the men, the women, the children, the oxen, the asses and to burn down the houses, to plow up the crops and to salt the earth in his conquest of the Land of Canaan. Children go first in times of crisis because of the simple fact children can be replaced whereas skilled and experience adults cannot. That’s life in the real world.

I believe it was unjustified to drop the atomic bomb to kill innocent civilians, it wiped out the entire environment. Regardless of the circumstances and which side does it, it isn't right. Someone mentioned that the civilians were making weapons in plants - civilians were doing that in the US as well, would we think it alrght if the position had been shifted and a bomb had been dropped on US civilians - I think not. Govts start the wars - the innocent always pay the biggest price! IMO wars are unjustified!

HST Did Right By Us

reply to post by mrsdudara



Harry S. Truman. I think the “S” in Harry’s name is like the “S” in U.S. Grant’s name, it stands for nothing. We know how Grant got his “S” at West Point, but I don’t recall how Harry got the “S” in his.

Harry Truman ordered the desegregation of the US Armed Forces in 1947. He offered universal access to health care in 1948. He stopped the North Koreans dead in their tracks. 1950. He (and Eleanor Roosevelt) sponsored the UN creation of the State of Israel in 1948. He instituted the Marshall Plan which many credit with saving Western Europe from a Soviet takeover. Peacefully.

Truman was the only man to hold the presidency after 1900 who had never attended college. But Mr. Truman was an assiduous reader and lifelong student of history.

In my pantheon of presidents, Washington is first of course. Without him there would be no United States. Lincoln is second but only because our system does not allow for TWO in first place. Again without Lincoln there would be no United States.

Then I rank FDR as third, because without him, there would be no modern, thoughtful United States as we know it today. Well that was as we knew it before the era beginning with Reagan.

Truman is No. 4 on my list. Followed by LBJ and Theodore Roosevelt as 5 and 6. Tied for 7 is JFK and Carter. 9 would be James K. Polk although I would have opposed him had I been alive then, and 10 is Bill Clinton. It’s far too early for me to rate Barack Obama.

You had a very good post!

reply to post by Darkrunner


As stated previously in another thread like this................no.

There are some lines that once you cross over them, there is no going back.

Once we dropped two bombs upon Japan we crossed a very critical line. We employed two weapons of mass destruction.

Some say that doing this ended the war soon and in the long run saved more lives but in my own opinion there is even the possiblity that Pearl Harbor like 911 was a false flag operation.

Even on the night before the attack, US intelligence decoded a message pointing to Sunday morning as a deadline for some kind of Japanese action. The message was delivered to the Washington high command more than four hours before the attack on Pearl Harbour. But, as many messages before, it was withheld from the Pearl Harbour commanders.Although many ships were damaged at Pearl Harbour, they were all old and slow. The main targets of the Japanese attack fleet were the Pacific Fleet's aircraft carriers, but Roosevelt made sure these were safe from the attack: in November, at about the same time as the Japanese attack fleet left Japan, Roosevelt sent the Lexington and Enterprise out to sea. Meanwhile, the Saratoga was in San Diego.

Why did Pearl Harbour happen? Roosevelt wanted a piece of the war pie. Having failed to bait Hitler by giving $50.1 billion in war supplies to Britain, the Soviet Union, France and China as part of the Lend Lease program, Roosevelt switched focus to Japan. Because Japan had signed a mutual defence pact with Germany and Italy, Roosevelt knew war with Japan was a legitimate back door to joining the war in Europe. On October 7, 1940, one of Roosevelt's military advisors, Lieutenant Commander Arthur McCollum, wrote a memo detailing an 8-step plan that would provoke Japan into attacking the United States. Over the next year, Roosevelt implemented all eight of the recommended actions. In the summer of 1941, the US joined England in an oil embargo against Japan. Japan needed oil for its war with China, and had no remaining option but to invade the East Indies and Southeast Asia to get new resources. And that required getting rid of the US Pacific Fleet first.

Although Roosevelt may have got more than he bargained for, he clearly let the attack on Pearl Harbour happen, and even helped Japan by making sure their attack was a surprise. He did this by withholding information from Pearl Harbour's commanders and even by ensuring the attack force wasn't accidentally discovered by commercial shipping traffic. As Rear Admiral Richmond K. Turner stated in 1941: "We were prepared to divert traffic when we believed war was imminent. We sent the traffic down via the Torres Strait, so that the track of the Japanese task force would be clear of any traffic."


Source: kennysideshow.blogspot.com...

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."

--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Within the first two to four months of the bombings, the acute effects killed 90,000–166,000 people in Hiroshima and 60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki

On Monday, August 6,1945 at 8:15 AM (Hiroshima Time) we forever crossed the line of opening the pandora's box of nuclear warfare.

And karma is a twitch baby, that is going to come back to bite us big time.

When you have a civilization that has advanced technology and yet it's spirituality is lagging behind you are looking at the possiblity of annihilation.

We should have never crossed that line for any reason.

Many people will not like the following pictures. But, if we are not aware of the results of our actions, we are doomed to repeat them. (The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were small compared to the ones we now have).

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/62d2a23f0d84.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0409e63d1ab8.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10a53f9283f5.jpg[/atsimg]

We are in a race and that race is whether or not humanity's technological capacity will grow faster than his spiritual / moral ability.

Technology without moral conscious is a fatal combination.

If I am alive and we have a third world war, I pray I am at ground zero. I wouldn't want to be one of the survivors.