Honestly, What More Proof Do We Really Need?

Originally posted by Jezus
For some people this issue isn't about proof, it is about "group think".

People have certain preconceived notions and "feelings" about this topic that prevent them from thinking critically or considering the evidence objectively.

If a person doesn't want to believe it is always possible to rationalize the evidence away.

Even a direct personal experience could be dismissed as an hallucination after the fact.

Once people feel that others who are similar to them are interested in the topic they too will think about it.

"Group think" prevents rational thought.

But in the end many people will claim "I always knew the were real..."

I don't think its group think per se, I think they're so used to a particular pattern of thought that it becomes routine, i.e. second nature. Adhering to a pattern hinders critical thinking. This applies to both the believers and the non believers.

About the Phoenix lights, one thing I would like to know is if they are flares why are the not falling to earth? I have a hard time thinking the army has flares that are able to resist gravity. Maybe there are videos out there that I have not seen where there is clearly a falling motion to the flares, if so I would love to see it.

Actually, they have been able to show that:

a) the flares winked out in the order they would have, when obscured by the mountain (they did this by overlaying the same vantage point as the videographer, and with day footage, and you can see the lights vanish as they go behind the mountain)

b) none of the videos show the lights existing for longer than the UUB-2 flare burn time.

The flares explanation for the event video-taped around 10pm does seem to be satisfied by the evidence. A visiting Air National Guard unit (not the Air Force) came forward that they dropped the flares during a night operation over the range on the other side of the mountain. (Operation Snowbird, if I recall correctly)

However, thing is, there was another, previous event that night, same city, where people saw something very similar (and timed NUFORC reports support this), and that 8pm event remains unexplained. Sadly though, only one video is known to exist of this event, and it's poor quality (and could very well depict the A-10's of the pilots who dropped the flares). Could the flares have been a coverup of the previous event? Who knows, but it does seem to be well-supported that the 10pm event can be explained by it.

A visiting Air National Guard unit (not the Air Force) came forward that they dropped the flares during a night operation over the range on the other side of the mountain. (Operation Snowbird, if I recall correctly)

Not unless they were flying helicopters they didn't. Shot themselves in the foot big time over this one. Yes , probably flares, but not dropped from aircraft they do not fit the pattern of flares aircraft use which are almost all exclusively for electronic counter measures against missile attacks. As i say, the flares in my opinion, were a deliberate attempt by the Airfocre to cover what people had seen. I am pretty damn sure several witnesses from Phoenix were well miffed about their sightings being completely ignored in the media rush to publicise the flares.

People I will add a video with different nights here in my garden....

I don't know WHAT THE HELL it is, but Its a LIGHT in the sky ... Its been there for years now, it moves around in circles and it flashes alot, it also goes from a dark light to bright light, and a light bulb, My family have noticed this with me, (Thank god for that since nobody believed me on it) , and ... yeah ? WTF? Now, this week I'm noticing alot of MOVING STARS... thats what I atleast try to call it, I'm a reasonable person about these things, And I DONT believe in UFO , But this is insane... I counted the moving flashing lights in the sky and there are about 9 , around the frigging house, Here in Belgium ... Also I tought I saw a triangle with 3 lights on it flying over me , turning visible - invisible - visible, real fast ... But I just blamed that on my fantasy since I DIDNT want to believe it.

Video's will be added in a new topic soon, I'm just going to film the days , so you will notice it is strange, I will make some sort of compilation ... Raw footage

Greets from belgium.

Originally posted by FireMoon

If they are claiming the flares were dropped from aircraft, the chances are they are lying through their teeth. Flares in the way they appear in the Phoenix video are only dropped like that by helicopters. They probably were flares, i suspect they were deliberately dropped to to take the heat of the sightings elsewhere in the state that night and quite deliberately steal their thunder.

Wrong.

The flares were dropped by Texas Air National Guard A-10 Warthogs as part of a nighttime training mission. They were not the usual anti-missile flares seen dropping from many combat aircraft. These were LL-2 parachute flares used for illuminating battlefields at night. They have a much larger incindiary component and are suspended from parachutes. They fall very slowly becuse as the flare burns it creates an updraft that fills the parachute and provides lift. It was a planned exercise and I'm sure they had no idea people in Phoenix would mistake them for a UFO. The videos are indisbutably of the military flares. I have my doubts about the existence of a large structured UFO over Phoenix on the same night. I suspect the other reports are either hoaxes or mass hysteria.

Note, I did mention that the flare explanation does NOT explain the 8pm event.

I've got a thread around here somewhere that has all of my research on the Phoenix Lights case. Feel free to read it and evaluate the evidence for yourself. I too, was skeptical of the flare explanation at first.

Here it is:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Gazrok


Gazrok, i remember that clip which supposedly was footage of the earlier sighting. It seems to have sunk without trace. Thing is if it was something special you can be sure ufologists would be on it like a fat man on smarties shouting from the rooftops about the best evidence ever.

The fact its sunk without trace is telling. Options

1. It was indeed the earlier sighting and it shows something ordinary like planes. That would be a huge blow for the beleivers so ufologists arn't too keen to promote it.
2. It shows something interesting but Ufologists dont promote it becuase it has dubious provinence. But heck when has that ever stopped them?
3. The secret government have buried it threatning everyone who has a copy not to distribute it. or else!

reply to post by wasco2


Only the good doctors evidence clearly shows they weren't flares, the flares were deliberately dropped not for some exercise but as panic measure to try and deflect what was going on.

It will take a lot for people to believe in something these days! If Aliens existed and made physical contact I feel people would still need to see / touch them to believe!

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by wasco2

 

Only the good doctors evidence clearly shows they weren't flares, the flares were deliberately dropped not for some exercise but as panic measure to try and deflect what was going on.

Yeah,ok, you have fun in moonbat fantasy land.

Gee, silly me!
I thought this thread was about proof of aliens, not the Phonenix lights incident.
Even if they weren't flares, all you have is unidentified lights in the sky. How does that proove anything about aliens?
Huh?

reply to post by wasco2



Such pent up frustration. Sad really, still, you can keep your head firmly up your jacksie admiring the wonders of your own fundament. if you had done an ounce of genuine research you'd already know the flares are busted flush.

Derailed by Phage instantly. What a surprise.

reply to post by Vanchatron

I believe the flaw is in your title. "Honestly, What More Proof Do We Really Need?" Many people think that the current data going through the UFO community is definitive proof. None of it has been established as such. As long as the community is looking for spiritual aspects and lights, there will NEVER-EVER be substantial proof to support any alien based theory.

Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by MarrsAttax

 

why did people have no trouble photographing & videoing the flares at 10pm? TV news helicopter even managed to film them. Why so much trouble getting the 8:30 magic craft on film?

edit on 4-10-2010 by yeti101 because: (no reason given)

Because by the time the flares were dropped people had been alerted to something strange in the sky and so were out looking for it whereas at the time of the initial sightings they were unprepared?

Not so hard to work out really.

Originally posted by wasco2

Originally posted by FireMoon

. I have my doubts about the existence of a large structured UFO over Phoenix on the same night. I suspect the other reports are either hoaxes or mass hysteria.

What ever makes you feel better. You gotta love some peoples belief systems lol. So, this could have been hoaxes or mass hysteria. Well mass hysteria explanation is a complete cop out if you ask me!

Is it possible that earlier sighting was some sort of hoax. I guess so, but it would have been a great one, for the amount of people who saw it.

Originally posted by yeti101
The fact its sunk without trace is telling. Options

1. It was indeed the earlier sighting and it shows something ordinary like planes. That would be a huge blow for the beleivers so ufologists arn't too keen to promote it.
2. It shows something interesting but Ufologists dont promote it becuase it has dubious provinence. But heck when has that ever stopped them?

3. The secret government have buried it threatning everyone who has a copy not to distribute it. or else!

"Sunk without a trace" is an exaggeration, it's still on the internet so that rules out #3, but #1 may be the correct explanation. But i agree it's not promoted as "evidence". The quality is so terrible it's hard to tell what it is but you can't rule out planes flying in a triangle formation.

See about 40 seconds into this video:


It's also on the discovery website (same video): dsc.discovery.com...

So I'd say there's more than a "trace" but I had to search hard to find these, it wasn't easy.

When even the head of Project Blue Book mentioned that military officers had been in contact with an alien named Affa, and he even showed his UFO off to them, I'm not sure what else we're supposed to think. I mean, it's not as if Blue Blue was set up to prove that aliens were visiting earth, but even they kept running into cases like these.

This really happened, however, strange as it sounds.





The witnesses who reported this contact were by no means goofies, loonies or wild-eyed True Believers, and there's enough stuff like this in the records that makes any attempts and debunking or derailing impossible. It's truly unemplianed, as was Affa's statement to the military that he was part of a galactic federation that was keeping an eye on the earth since it was sort of a cosmic bad boy.

And then we have Robert Emenegger who was informed directly by the Air Force that a UFO landed at a military base at least once and aliens got out to confer with military personnel. They even showed him some footage of the event, very small parts of which he was allowed to use in his documentary.

To me, events like these prove conclusively that aliens are here and the government has known about it for a long time.