Why some fear China and India are on the road to war

reply to post by Returners


The Mongols controlled what we call China, or White Cathay....till 1571, hence what I said about the still raging argument, people that hold a bias in favor of Maoist China will almost certainly discuss this from your perspective. Every side has its propaganda. The Mongols are no more classic Chinese then Japanese.

Heres a timeline: Mongolia

Chronology of Important Events

3rd century B.C. - Iron weapons in use; Xiongnu invasion of China repulsed

2d-1st centuries B.C. - Nomads expand west; pressure on China continues

1st-2d centuries A.D. - Renewed attacks on China

A.D. 317 - Xianbei conquer northern China

386-533 - Period of Northern Wei Dynasty, established by the Toba in northern China mid-8th century
Possible early Mongol links with Tibetan Buddhism

916-1125 - Period of Kitan Liao Dynasty, established over eastern Mongolia, Manchuria, and northern China

1038-1227 - Tangut Western Xia Dynasty, established in northwestern China

1115-1234 - Jurchen establish Jin Dynasty in Manchuria, northern China

1139-47 - Jurchen defeat Mongols in Pamirs

1196-1206 - Temujin unites Mongols, assumes title of Chinggis Khan

1209-15 - Mongols conquer south to Beijing, west to Lake Balkash

1220-26 - Southwest Asia conquered; invasion of Europe and China

1227 - Chinggis dies

1231 - Korea invaded

1235 - Capital rebuilt at Karakorum

1237-41 - Expedition into Europe that was halted at Vienna with death of Ogedei

1240-1480 - Suzerainty over Russia established by Golden Horde Conquest of Song China

1260 - Mongols defeated by Egyptian Mamluks

1261 - Khubilai becomes great khan

1274 and 1281 - Unsuccessful attempts at invasion of Japan

1279 - Yuan Dynasty established in China

1368 - Yuan Dynasty destroyed; Mongols driven back into Mongolia

1388 - Chinese troops destroy Karakorum

1391 - Timur defeats Golden Horde

1400-54 - Civil war ends Mongol unity

1409-49 - Renewed Mongol invasions of China

1466 - Dayan Khan reunites most of Mongolia

1480-1502 - Muscovites end Mongol control of Russia; last of Golden Horde defeated

1571 - Mongols end 300-year war with China

1586 - Buddhism becomes state religion

1641-52 - Russians defeat Buryat Mongols, gain control of Lake Baykal region

1672 - Mongols raid Siberia and Russia

1691 - Most Khalkha Mongols accept suzerainty of Manchus, absorbed into Chinese empire (Qing Dyansty 1644-1911)

1728 - Sino-Russian Treaty of Kyakhta redefines traditional Mongolian borders

1732 - Dzungar Mongols defeated; Mongol independence ended

1750s - Chinese divide Mongolia into northern, Outer Mongolia (see Glossary), and Southern, Inner Mongolia (see Glossary)

1783 - Last reigning descendant of Chinggis in the Crimea deposed by Russians

reply to post by oozyism


you're not paying attension. it's your loss

Originally posted by Shadowfoot
reply to post by Returners

 

The Mongols controlled what we call China, or White Cathay....till 1571, hence what I said about the still raging argument, people that hold a bias in favor of Maoist China will almost certainly discuss this from your perspective. Every side has its propaganda. The Mongols are no more classic Chinese then Japanese.

Heres a timeline: Mongolia

Chronology of Important Events

3rd century B.C. - Iron weapons in use; Xiongnu invasion of China repulsed

2d-1st centuries B.C. - Nomads expand west; pressure on China continues

1st-2d centuries A.D. - Renewed attacks on China

A.D. 317 - Xianbei conquer northern China

386-533 - Period of Northern Wei Dynasty, established by the Toba in northern China mid-8th century
Possible early Mongol links with Tibetan Buddhism

916-1125 - Period of Kitan Liao Dynasty, established over eastern Mongolia, Manchuria, and northern China

1038-1227 - Tangut Western Xia Dynasty, established in northwestern China

1115-1234 - Jurchen establish Jin Dynasty in Manchuria, northern China

1139-47 - Jurchen defeat Mongols in Pamirs

1196-1206 - Temujin unites Mongols, assumes title of Chinggis Khan

1209-15 - Mongols conquer south to Beijing, west to Lake Balkash

1220-26 - Southwest Asia conquered; invasion of Europe and China

1227 - Chinggis dies

1231 - Korea invaded

1235 - Capital rebuilt at Karakorum

1237-41 - Expedition into Europe that was halted at Vienna with death of Ogedei

1240-1480 - Suzerainty over Russia established by Golden Horde Conquest of Song China

1260 - Mongols defeated by Egyptian Mamluks

1261 - Khubilai becomes great khan

1274 and 1281 - Unsuccessful attempts at invasion of Japan

1279 - Yuan Dynasty established in China

1368 - Yuan Dynasty destroyed; Mongols driven back into Mongolia

1388 - Chinese troops destroy Karakorum

1391 - Timur defeats Golden Horde

1400-54 - Civil war ends Mongol unity

1409-49 - Renewed Mongol invasions of China

1466 - Dayan Khan reunites most of Mongolia

1480-1502 - Muscovites end Mongol control of Russia; last of Golden Horde defeated

1571 - Mongols end 300-year war with China

1586 - Buddhism becomes state religion

1641-52 - Russians defeat Buryat Mongols, gain control of Lake Baykal region

1672 - Mongols raid Siberia and Russia

1691 - Most Khalkha Mongols accept suzerainty of Manchus, absorbed into Chinese empire (Qing Dyansty 1644-1911)

1728 - Sino-Russian Treaty of Kyakhta redefines traditional Mongolian borders

1732 - Dzungar Mongols defeated; Mongol independence ended

1750s - Chinese divide Mongolia into northern, Outer Mongolia (see Glossary), and Southern, Inner Mongolia (see Glossary)

1783 - Last reigning descendant of Chinggis in the Crimea deposed by Russians

Look at the founding of Any country, Germany used to be thousands of barbarian tribes. Eventually one tribe conquered all the other tribes and over the years they became one people.

The mongols were not chinese, but the descendants of these mongols considered themselves chinese. The point is that after the mongols fell Tibet still stuck with the next dynasty which was Ming and continued to stick with China all the way to the Qing dynasty. Afterwards China did not have a stable government again till the PRC and even then the Tibetan communist party was fighting to reunify with China.

There are 56 ethnicities of China

www.youtube.com...

Well both India and China are reapidly growing competitors of the western countries, and if I were representing the western world, a war between them would be good news. It might also trigger another world war...

We shall see..

reply to post by Returners


Actually today's German territories were know as The Roman Holy Empire, made out of over 300 small principates.
It came under the rule of the Habsburgs... to make a long story short, they united in the 19th century forming the German nation. But they were not barbarian tribes, at least not after the Roman Empire age.

well personally i think that a possibility of Indo-China war is quite remote. . both of them going to war will result in a full scaled nuclear bombarding. . which i dont think any international body will stand and watch. . yes a lotta diplomatic wars have been going on between the two countries (china claiming Arunachal Pradesh as their part, not providing proper visa to indian national, closing its military to indian borders etc.) but a war wont exactly happen due to meager intimidation from either sides as trade relation still exist between the two countries. .

Even so if they do decide to go on war it will ultimately result in world war. . i am hopeing something like this. .
India vs China
India vs Pakistan
USA and India allign
as US alligns with India. . entire EU alligns with India
Israel alligns with India
Russia and India are very close hence they most probably opt to stay out of the conflict
So ultimately we have
US/India/EU vs China/Pakistan/All other Gulf Countries

reply to post by MrAtomicspace


To be fair to Returners, most nations do owe a lot of their shape and territory to conquest, and which usually does begin with the expansion of an indigenous culture to the geographic, social, or technical limits of its ability, which eventually stabilizes into a proto-state either through development or conquest, and then amalgamates with other such local regions after much time and change- whether politically or through further violence. It isn't just coincidence that England, France, Germany, and Italy are all named after indigenous cultures. True most of those ethnicities lost their distinct identity to some degree before their nations achieved their modern form, which in the final phases had a lot to do with foreign intervention or pressure- but you can't exclude them from history for that. So I don't mind saying that China's military history does reflect the natural process of a nation-state's growth.

The problem is that so does most expansionism and imperialism. What China has acquired and hopes to maintain might be normal, and may be a process that we know has over the course of Millennia advanced the capabilities of human civilization. But we also know that its a dangerous process with many drawbacks that we have only continued using because we haven't been able to get the same kind of progress on the same large scale by any other normal method yet.

I agree with those who have said that it is insane for India and China to go to war, much less for others to make the mistake of enlarging such a war if it happens. However, my fear is that people who know better will go ahead and act as if they were insane. That's partly because conversations about what forcible acquisitions of territory were or were not justified completely miss the point- if any force can be justified, the option of war never comes off the table completely. I don't have the answer of course though, so I guess that means war remains on the table.

reply to post by Daniyal


China now is the 2nd largest economy in the World and it's growing even larger, India is becoming the most educated nation in the world, these two nations have no real reason to fight eachother, however if they joined together no one could stop them.

reply to post by OmiOra


You can't quench your thirst with a diploma or a yuan. These two neighbors are both immensely overpopulated. Sooner or later, there won't be room or resources for everybody and somebody will have to be kicked out.

edit to add (unless of course responsible living comes into vogue)

reply to post by The Vagabond


Yes, if war was to happen, it would just follow the tradition of mankind.

reply to post by Daniyal


Though I'd personally be rooting for India, they would be routed by the Chinese. Indians are nice people, but a bit timid. The reason the Mumbai attacks were so devastating is that their police were hiding and running. Armed police were afraid to get involved. Police on site in the hotel were actually hiding from instead of firing on the assailants. They seem to lack an aggressive self defense gene, instead relying on the "run like hell" gene.

Not to go off on a tangent or anything, but I will. Here in the states it's a bit different. The liberal anti 2nd ammendment press would have you believe that kind of thing is a huge danger here. Actually, the only places these attacks are wildly successful is in gun free zones. There was the High School in Colorado. The military base in San Antonio, where they keep the troops, other than MP's from packing. What they don't tell you is how many of these perps are shot dead by an armed civilian bystander. This happened on a Campus on the east coast a year or two back, last year at a church, recently in Texas. Strangely, the press never mentions the bad guy was taken down by a civilian with a gun. Sorry if the second half of this reply was off topic, but it really isn't. You see, if they tried that in Texas, they may catch a few folks off guard, but make no mistake, they'd be taken down with or without the police. Gun ownership was the sole reason Japan didn't attempt an invasion in WWII.