Truth about China

Originally posted by WestPoint23
and the rocket exploded on take off it wasn't carrying real nuclear warhead but if it had been real there go a whole lot of Chinese people

Explosion of rocket booster wouldn't really explode nuke.
But HEs used in primary can explode, but because achieving fission requires symmetrical implosion it becomes just "dirty bomb".


www.ibiblio.org...
But contrary to what that page says, HEs in that free-falled bomb's primary exploded!
This document using declassified material shows it clearly:
www.vce.com...

[edit on 28-6-2004 by E_T]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
A little food for thought for the Chinese...

Usually for this kind of complex system they do a reliability control in engineering. The rocket is devided into sub-systems such as the engine, fueling, etc., each of which should show a reliability of so called "6-sigma" reliability.

I remember I watched the TV once China was lauching a satellite for the state. The satellite got lost after the rocket sent it into the orbit. In another launching, they found some problem after the rocket had already fired and was about to take off, the Chinese simply shut the rocket engine and stopped the launching. That was a very good technology. NASA bought that for ca $ 100 M, as I read somewhere.

During the past 5 years China sent to space about 20 satelltes successfully. And last year an astronomer was sent to space. All this shows a good reliability. We all know that both missiles and sates share similar rockets. From their production capability, I don;t really believe they only have 30 ICBM's. And it is better not to underestimate their capability.

over 20 years ago the state started sending space shuttles. China has not had one yet. I estimate that China is at least 20 yrs behind USA in aerospace technology. However, their rockets should be good enough for firing missiles. Better take it seriously.





[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

Originally posted by jd27
sweatmonicaIdo,

Actually, we were discussing a war between China and the US, and our discussion stemmed from the fact that you favor China to win, and I favor the US. ....

calm down, calm down..sir.

You might be both very correct in your statements. We r all taxpayers, right? we pay tax to the federal/state/local government. This is enough to show the loyalty(of course there always might be exceptions), isnt it?

Verbas sometimes cause misunderstanding. Behaviors don't.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

jd27,

I already ended our discussion in my last post (or at least I tried to). When it's time to stop, it's time to stop, you know.

So I'll disregard your last post and our discussion ends here. K?

[edit on 28-6-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by fuelcell
calm down, calm down..sir.

You might be both very correct in your statements. We r all taxpayers, right? we pay tax to the federal/state/local government. This is enough to show the loyalty(of course there always might be exceptions), isnt it?

Verbas sometimes cause misunderstanding. Behaviors don't.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by fuelcell]

Good point, but let's stick to the real argument: The Bald Eagle vs. the Dragon.

There's a common misconception that anything that contains superior technology built by another nation other than the U.S. is faulty. It's more of a stereotype that is built on actual experience. However, Asians being Asians, they strive for perfection in whatever they make, so I'm not so sure about the rocket exploding on lift-off.

One indication that would not happen is that the Chinese seem to be taking it one step at a time. They're not going all-out in terms of build-up, they seem to have a systematic way of doing things. Not like the Soviet Union, who built up a massive military force within a span of about a decade.

asians strive for perfection and have good equipment tell them to build a car first and leave the military to us also do you know the percent of people in china who are farmers take a guess (hint) above 70% yeah we should fear them just drop a couple of bombs in their rice fields and all those people will starve to death faster than we can kill them.

@westpoint,

Why is that you always throw these childish remarks at people who are trying to have a civil discussion? Saying dropping a couple of bombs is quite easy, just as anyone saying he can whoop your childish ass in a second. If you have nothing intelligent to add, just drop it or go play with your school mates.

Originally posted by Hawkssss
@westpoint,

Why is that you always throw these childish remarks at people who are trying to have a civil discussion? Saying dropping a couple of bombs is quite easy, just as anyone saying he can whoop your childish ass in a second. If you have nothing intelligent to add, just drop it or go play with your school mates.

School mates? What school mates?

It's incredible, either they get real hot-headed and resort to these truly lame comments and insults, or they make up things as they go along.

And for a guy who likes to insult farmers, WestPoint23 seems to forget that America's economy was and in many ways still is built upon farming. What an insult to the nation by someone calling himself patriotic.

We've got to stop being strayed off-topic. Let's get back to the original subject.

lame comments im saying facts there is nothing funny about denying your enemy resources and food if we had a blockade of china and destroyed their agricultural farms how are they going to feed 1.5 billion people this is not a stupid comment.

Okay is everyone done with the "who would win the war debte", its not about war, China will win because of the economic factors alone. Face it, I am an American but eventually the US will no longer be the strongest super power in the world. China will not have to send troops or ships or navies or fighter planes or bombers or even ICBM's to do with. They just need some pleasant good natured ambassadors and forgien envoy's. Thats it.

That's all they need.

Just grease the political lobbyists and the world is theirs for the taking.

No need for expensive troop movements, remote bases, tactical and support supply ships. Not needed

This has been stated a multitude of times but as the Chinese market spins up to pace there will be no stopping the weight of economic influence China will have on the world market and on the supplying Countries.

If China is a good steward that will respect the soverignity of the countries, then life will continue on as we know it. If not then we will be at the mercy of who ever is in power in China. They will have the power and economic strength to collapse any market of their choosing. To decide which companies survive or fail. Which entire industries collapse.

No war is required, battles will be at the auction tables, between countries bidding for lucrative contracts for China.

This is where the US needs to tread carefully with China. To keep MAD policies to keep a strong military capability. Not to protect other nations, no we have lost that war already, but to defend the US's right to trade with only itself.

Talk about closed borders, what would the US be like when we can no longer import things from China or Korea (because Japan will not let them expot goods to the US) actually because China overpays and buys ALL the production capabilities of these two countries leaving NO product to ship to the US.

The US would then become cut off from all the worlds market. WE will become the 3rd world nation of the planet.

But resourceful Americans will live on, we will endure we will become an isolated society. Maybe we will create a utopia, maybe will have endless civil wars and unrest as "pro-world, pro-china trade" groups push for the US to enter the Sini-World Community.

Who knows, but the threat of war with China is very low on the probability table compared to Economic Competition and destabilization.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by robertfenix]

Good point robertfenix, as I have stated as well that the US and China rely on each other to prosper. But I guess what were discussing is today, militarily, who would come out on top in a hypathetical situation. And its a shame sweatmonica will no longer grace me with his/her brilliant rebuttals. Im suprised he/she was able to pull his/her lips away from Chinas backside long enough for the debate to go on as long as it did (no offense, hawkssss, China is a country that deserves respect but Im sure you too would be irritated if one of your countrymen was singing the praises of America while stating how inept China was). But as far as the conventional military factors go, I believe we would win for several reasons, first China does have a large population, however the US would almost certainly control the skies, our pilots are highly trained and experienced in dogfighting, and yes F-15s and 16s have been around awhile, but have been updated with the newest most advanced technology not to mention our stealth fighters and the new F-22s which also are stealth. The forecast over any large troop movement or position would call for a rain of MOABs and guided missiles. Not to mention at this point in time China would have a hard time moving any large number of troops, not to mention supplying them. We would even the troop numbers nicely from the skies long before there were any ground battles. And where would these ground battles be fought? I doubt any country can invade the US. They dont have any bases in Mexico or Canada do they? We have troops all over that region. But we now have robots do most of our fighting, we just mop up the mess. In Desert Storm, Iraq had one of the worlds largest armies, how well did they fare? At this point we are unsurpassed in military power (conventionally anyway, no army can fight guerillas that blend in with the people and strike when your back is turned). But again, this is all hypathetical, and kinda like debating who wins between Batman and Superman, only in an adult forum.

You can't fight a war if you're broke.

So robertfenix hit the nail on the head.

I completely agree with you robertfenix. And the funny thing is that I am watching western companies and lawyers here in China doing everything they can for China to live up to its WTO acession schedule (read: liberalize the economy) so that they can just pour more money into the country and delocalize more industries from the west.

One thing you haven't raised is the financial side of things. America has a massive budgetary concerns, I believe we are talking trillions here. The trade surplus right now is in China's favor, combined with America's military spending this is just contributing to making the US deficit grow bigger.

America has become a creditor nation that lives on borrowed money. What happens when the world loses faith in America's ability to pay back? When people lose faith in the dollar ? This is not as far fetched as some might think...

I believe that America is shooting itself in the foot (particularly with all that useless Irak war spending) and the Chinese are quietly watching it happen. They think to themselves "Ah, these lao-wai are really neglecting the basics here..." Fong-zi de waiguo ren!

China on the other hand has one of the highest savings rate per capita (the amount of income that is saved by individuals rather than spent). Their finances are in good shape. the Chinese are starting to invest massively in the US, they are part of the people that are soaking up the US debt...

Question for Westpoint and other military-fans. I appreciate your balanced views and eloquent replies wes, I really do.

So what about mercenaries. You know, the private companies with guns for hire that we see in Iraq... there are about 30,000 in Iraq, that's a lot.

Is that making the US stronger?

Didn't the Roman Empire fall partly because it relied on northern European mercenaries from present day Germany, like the Visigoths and Ostrogoths?

What happens when an other country has enough money to hire the guns too. Will the mercenaries fight the US? Aren't they in it for the money? Isn't their alliegeance to the highest bidder?

So what if China hired mercenaries?

The point that China has a growing economy is again well taken. But the US has been in financial trouble before, and pulled out of it, under Clinton we had a surplus and that wasnt that long ago. Sure our current president has messed things up good, but hopefully the American people, the intelligent American people, will get out and vote him out of office. Hopefully, even the religious fanatics out there will recognize he is playing them for fools. Im optimistic that the USA will continue to be the largest economy. But people will get upset if we change the discussion from the USA vs China in this day and age, not in the future when the US crumbles beneath Chinas economic weight (we can all speculate and predict the future but nobody knows who will be on top, mother nature could get tired of it all and wipe us all out via asteroid or a new ice age). But Im interested to hear your opinions on Chinas military against ours in these times, because I also feel that in the future there will likely be less war as the civilized world will become more intelligent, leave organized religion and ultra-nationalism behind, and work as one economy. We can all hope anyway.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by jd27]

Originally posted by Analyst
So what about mercenaries. You know, the private companies with guns for hire that we see in Iraq... there are about 30,000 in Iraq, that's a lot.
So what if China hired mercenaries?

Compared to the ability of governments to mobilize troops, mercinaries are not a huge factor. The mercinaries in Iraq (which I question actually. Is there any chance you're counting Iraqi Police in that number?) would be a matter of convenience. It makes the war look better on paper, because that's officially 30,000 less troops, and i'm sure the cost for these mercs is hidden creatively, which reduces the official cost of the war. We don't rely on mercs.

As for my my friend Mr. Chris' assertion that the missiles would blow up on the launch pad or enver come down... he wasn't talking about bad manufacturing. We were discussing the need for missile defense, and the fact that we can not rely on patriot missiles when he told me that.

Possibly related, my friend was a cryptographer, and he had talked in the past about the possibility of feeding self-destruct codes to enemy missiles, although i dont' know if that's what he was talking about when he said they'd blow up on the launch pad. (the convesation about using self destruct codes seemed to be much more uncertain in tone).

mercenaries they are there because like someone said it makes the war look good on paper but if a real war with china all those mercenaries are American and their blood is American they would not go to china to fight against the US it will help the Us they already know how to fire a gun and other things all we have to do is give them a uniform and that is 30.000 more troops.

Also, on the missile defense issue, Arco and the government have some sort of project in the Alaskan wilderness with fields of huge metal structures. Some believe they are experimenting with technology to super heat the atmosphere to manipulate weather or to send out EMPs to completely disable any incoming missiles or planes, causing them to plummet into the ocean. Im not sure how that all works but the project is real, whether its military or something else, but I dont know what else it could be, they look like giant radio towers. Could explain where all of the money our country spends goes.

"There's a common misconception that anything that contains superior technology built by another nation other than the U.S. is faulty. It's more of a stereotype that is built on actual experience. However, Asians being Asians, they strive for perfection in whatever they make, so I'm not so sure about the rocket exploding on lift-off."



I hate to beat a dead horse, and I know sweatmonica no longer wishes to debate with me, but Asians being Asians? Is that not also a stereotype?

[edit on 28-6-2004 by jd27]

Originally posted by jd27
The point that China has a growing economy is again well taken. But the US has been in financial trouble before, and pulled out of it, under Clinton we had a surplus and that wasnt that long ago. Sure our current president has messed things up good, but hopefully the American people, ..... the future there will likely be less war as the civilized world will become more intelligent, leave organized religion and ultra-nationalism behind, and work as one economy. We can all hope anyway.

[edit on 28-6-2004 by jd27]

Agree. Folks, things r not that bad.

Two of the strongest sides of the State are the immigrants and resources. As long as US take immigrants, best people in the world will come here toe to exploit the best intelligent/natural resources. The State is therefore still be leading in the future. The worst thing is that the American might become less momentum when USA is at the leading position for too long a time. I don't see that day will come too soon. However, it is important to be cautious.

The long history constantly saw empires ups and downs. USA might fall some day in the future, but not now, not in the near future. China is soaring but it has a lot of problems, some of which are near fatal, such their lousy banking system. It is too early to say Chinawill replace USA. Maybe some other member, say, India, will do the job. Who knows?

After all, US's GDP is $10 trillioon vs China's $ 1.5 Trillion (their purchase power partity is ca 5 trillion). A long way to go.

Yes, China is moving fast. They are powerful now and will be more powerful in the future. Most Chinse save a large part of today's money for tomorrow. Most americans spend tomorrow's money for today. This might be a biggest advantage of the Chinese.

If we take China as a big Dragon company, then the Uncle Sam Company can buy their stocks. As China Booms, Americans can get a big big payback. Don't try to beat them (which is actually impossible), just join them to get all the best out of it, for the future of Uncle Sam Company.

My CEO and my direct boss both mentioned many many times that our company;s future is in China. It is true. The section related to China generates the biggest margins now. In a few years I should have a chance to work in China (Guangdong, a province near Hong Kong. I am learning Chinese now.) It is a win-win situation. why should we talk about mutual destuction? are we crazy?

I love how people under estimate China.

Napolean called China a "sleeping giant" because he knew China was a powerful force.

And as much as China relies on USA, USA also relies on China because after WWI, USA opened a lot of markets in Asia, especially in China.

And China has an above average Navy. With most of our troops over seas, they can easily invade the Eastern coast of the United States uncontested.