Creationism/Intelligent Design: PROVE IT!

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

It seems you have been reading articles, but haven't truly grasped much..

I will repeat, where did it come from??

I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible, yet you're acting like this is level 7 Cosmology or something.. Simple question, tell us where it came from.

You mean how came the law of thermodynamics to be?? I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone does. But we know how it works, the law itself is defined and doesn't require a creator by the very definition of the word "law". Now as far as whether or not it required a creator to come into existence in the first place, no one knows...but given that it doesn't require a creator to work now, it's quite possible that it didn't require one to come into existence.

Either way, if the answer is "we don't know", then it's NOT supporting creationism. That's unless you fall into the gap trap by believing (no pun intended) that a lack of knowledge equals proof for the existence of a creator.

Fact is, laws are defined as not requiring a creator to function as they do. What made all laws come into existence is anyone's guess (big bang, spaghetti monster, etc.), but this lack of knowledge is NOT support for creationism. I know, you soooooo want to claim it is, but please don't make us laugh by falling into the gap trap

You love talking in absolutes like "there is a creator"...yet nothing you've said so far would support your statement. All your'e doing is repeating your base message without ever backing it up, like a broken cassette player.

reply to post by MrXYZ

You mean how came the law of thermodynamics to be?? I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone does. But we know how it works

I asked you where it came from

Not, how it works

What is the origin of natural laws? What caused them to exist?

So once again, I'll ask you again:

1. Do we have any laws which came to existence through intelligence?

2. Do we have any laws which have unknown causes?

3. Do we have any laws which came to existence without intelligence?

Please I beg you, answer with yes or no.. This time answer them correctly please, just yes or no.



I'm gonna go outside have a smoke and think about you

Very interesting discussion, still wondering where it will end up.

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

You mean how came the law of thermodynamics to be?? I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone does. But we know how it works

I asked you where it came from

Just reread my previous post, I already explained why your entire approach is complete hogwash. Not my fault if your ego can't handle that and you're so stubborn you'll keep on repeating it anyway.

And if you could read (I know, can't be easy for you), you would know that I said I'm not sure anyone knows where it comes from. In fact, it's right in the part where you quoted me, so you obviously read it...now next task, go understand it. At first I thought you're just ignorant, but I'm starting to believe your'e just really really dense. I and others have posted links after links explaining why from a scientific standpoint your entire approach is wrong, yet you keep on repeating your base message like a parrot while completely ignoring everything people type if it contracts your belief. Like a blind sheep...

You're trying really hard to use a lack of knowledge as proof for creationism, and you keep on repeating it like a parrot. You're obviously too brainwashed add anything useful to a rational and logical discussion if you can't even get that.

hello friend,i will try my hand at this from a creationist viewpoint,i believe that the creationist view point is made possible by faith,as quoted from the bible in Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the evidence of things unseen",but that is christian,

so to take other religions into account one must take what all have somewhat in common,the believe in a creator and praying,if you really seek answers that humans fail to give then i advise you to pray,to every god you can think of and see which one answers you,i assure you it will be the christian god and an answers will come to you,

one must now take the step alone beyond being a scientist,and try their a hand at this faith, if it fails then it is because you tried and nothing happened,rather than just making assumptions.

reply to post by saywhat?


I recall reading an article from a Chabad website. It mention how God created everything that you can't have your creation prove you're real. I will try to find it.

reply to post by saywhat?


A Muslim would say the exact same thing...except that he'd say Allah will be the only one responding. And he got just as much wanna-be backup as you.

But I respect your right to believe if it enriches your life, nothing wrong with that. I'm just arguing that there is no way creationism should ever be taught in school given that it's faith based and not on rationality/logic. It also won't allow for any examination according to the scientific method, which is another reason it should stay away form science classes.

I'm not the OP, but I assume this thread was created to give creationists a platform to provide scientific proof while following scientific method. 20 pages later we finally know once and for all that they're not able to...like you say, it's faith based. In fact, you're the only creationist in here who admitted the only backup is faith, and the only one who didn't make it abundantly clear he doesn't understand scientific method...so congrats

exactly, a muslim would say the same thing,but it wouldn't hurt to try as i did,you are right praying is irrational,and the whole lot of it,but what you got to lose,this is what this faith that they talk about is all about,so if there is a god , and i or we cannot answer you ,you must ask him yourself,if there is no reply,then there is no god.

you cannot make judgements without trying yourself , friend.

reply to post by saywhat?


But religion isn't for everyone, some people like the OP and myself require scientific proof. That doesn't mean we're bad people. I live a good life, never hurt anyone (except in Thai boxing, but that was consensual), donate money to charity, and otherwise am what most people would consider a good person. Now assuming there is such a thing as a god (no matter which religion), if the only reason I'll end up in hell is because his ego is hurt because I didn't worship him, then that's a pretty stupid god. That's like a president sending you to prison because you don't worship him for making roads.

Should a god exist, and when I die I meat this creature, I'll high-five him for creating stuff because it's impressive...even if from a human perspective it often seems far from intelligent design (most of the universe is super hostile for us). But he did not sign his creation, which leads me to believe he doesn't really care too much about being given credit for his work when deciding whether your'e worthy of heaven or going to hell. Unless he's up for tricking people, and that seems petty for such a creature.

Believing in a creator out of fear is the same as following a dictator out of fear. Either of the two would not be for me. If I'd live in country with a dictatorship, I'd be the rebel instead of the mindless drone...even if the drone might have it easier.

What we have is hundreds of different religions and cults, each claiming to be the "right one". All have religious scriptures which form the basis of their belief...and every single one of those scriptures was written by MEN. A lot of the doctrines make it very clear that either that specific god is very petty, or the doctrine was made up by some human to increase his power, influence, or credibility. Beating women in Islam is an example, or the section in the Bible that says it's ok to beat your slave as long as he lives another 24hrs before dying. I can't believe a god would be so petty as to support those rules, and if he were, it wouldn't be a god I'd ever worship. Just like I'm not worshipping dictators.

So in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I won't believe in a creator. And should I be wrong, I'm not concerned either, because I wouldn't live my life any other way and believe I'm a decent person. In short, if I get into trouble for not believing, god would be a bit of an ass...and I refuse to kiss the ass of an ass, in life and/or death.

indeed indeed,so it seems if you want answers you must "try" religion,then you can say i tried religion its false and fake,i prayed to all gods nothing happened and still no proof,then we will rest our case,


in the name of science you must be prepared to take risks and make sacrifices.

reply to post by MrXYZ


So the answers are:
1. Do we have any laws which came to existence through intelligence? (yes)

2. Do we have any laws which have unknown causes? (yes)

3. Do we have any laws which came to existence without intelligence? (no)

And the conclusion any intelligent person would come to, would be, that the laws which have unknown causes must also come to existence through intelligence, unless proven otherwise.

That is the point I have been making throughout our discussion.

The same goes for systems.

1. Do we have any systems which came to existence through intelligence? (yes)

2. Do we have any systems which have unknown causes? (yes)

3. Do we have any systems which came to existence without intelligence? (no)

Once again, the conclusion, the systems with unknown causes must have also come through intelligence, unless proven other wise.

Now if you want to debunk my evidence, you must prove that systems, or laws can come to existence without intelligence.

If not, I have evidence for my belief.

reply to post by oozyism


Reading must be so hard for you...

I said we don't know whether or not laws can come into existence with/without intelligence. We just don't know. I did NOT say they can't come into existence without intelligence...it's only you who keep on repeating that statement like a parrot.

The statement that no laws can come into existence without intelligence is a BELIEF and NOT a scientific fact. It's what you believe, nothing more. Ergo, your entire theory is complete hogwash and nothing of it supports creationism.

It's beyond me why you keep on repeating it. I mean, you can post it once and then realize your error, maybe twice to get a follow up answer. But you've posted it so many times, I'm starting to doubt your education.

The only correct answer to n3 is that WE DON'T KNOW. If we don't know, it doesn't support any theory, including creationism. To say otherwise just shows that you use a lack of knowledge as wanna-be proof for your belief, like most creationists do. At least most of them step into gap trap once and then limp away...you stepped into the gap trap and continue to do so, and the creepy thing is you're doing it with a grin on your lips. So stupid...

And you can stop posting your 3 point systems. Crap stays crap, no matter how many times you post it...I and others already explained you so many times why from a scientific standpoint your approach is hogwash, either accept that and move on, or continue living in fantasy land while the rest of us stick to reality (because reality is cool).

reply to post by MrXYZ

The statement that no laws can come into existence without intelligence is a BELIEF and NOT a scientific fact.

I have evidence to back up my claim therefore it is a proven theory until dis-proven hence we have laws which came through intelligence and we have absolutely no laws which came through other means.

To put it differently:

2+2=4, no matter how many times we checked, 2+2=4.
Unless you can find an instance where 2+2!=4, the above stays true.

By the way, you can't use the unknown to question the validity of 2+2=4, get it In that case you would be using the gap of knowledge argument.

reply to post by oozyism


You have ZERO scientific evidence that all systems are the product of creation. You named a few, and then took the Grand Canyon sized leap of faith to the conclusion that all systems are created. That's not evidence, scientifically that's a joke...and an example of how the education system if failing.

And we know of plenty of systems (like trees) that don't require a creator...which again makes it abundantly clear to anyone with a brain that not all systems require a creator to work or come into existence.

reply to post by oozyism

h

this is right ooyizm,we cannot prove god exists,by the vehicle of faith we believe in creationism,why? because the answers in science were not enough for us,so we try this faith, and begin our journey,apparently the proof of gods existence as you believe by faith is revealed only to you,and you realize that another person would realize gods existence also by faith differently,and so this walk is only between you and god,who we must assume has all the answers being the creator and all.

but hey im not here to preach but to give you a thought to consider,as you seek answers.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by oozyism

 

You have ZERO scientific evidence that all systems are the product of creation. You named a few, and then took the Grand Canyon sized leap of faith to the conclusion that all systems are created. That's not evidence, scientifically that's a joke...and an example of how the education system if failing.

And we know of plenty of systems (like trees) that don't require a creator...which again makes it abundantly clear to anyone with a brain that not all systems require a creator to work or come into existence.

edit on 31-10-2010 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

So it is not evidence that every law we have is the product of intelligence?

Please stop talking about science, if you have no scientific proof otherwise. I told you many times over that you can scientifically test this, why don't you?

I told you many times to conduct experiments to prove that laws can come to existence without intelligence or a creator.

In regards to a tree trees exist because of unknown causes. Follow the cause and effect, and it will lead you back to the big bang, which is unknown, that is why natural systems are all in the unknown category.

Have you had your coffee??

Originally posted by oozyism

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by oozyism

 

You have ZERO scientific evidence that all systems are the product of creation. You named a few, and then took the Grand Canyon sized leap of faith to the conclusion that all systems are created. That's not evidence, scientifically that's a joke...and an example of how the education system if failing.

And we know of plenty of systems (like trees) that don't require a creator...which again makes it abundantly clear to anyone with a brain that not all systems require a creator to work or come into existence.

edit on 31-10-2010 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

So it is not evidence that every law we have is the product of intelligence?

YOU claim they're all a product of intelligence. In no way have you ever backed that up! That's not how science works, but you seem too dense to understand that.

I don't think you really understand the difference between belief and fact...or reality and fiction for that matter. Fantasy land might be fun, but I encourage you to try reality at least for a bit...it's awesome

And you claiming we don't understand trees in the 21st century has to be the most idiotic thing I read on these forums today, thx for the laugh

Originally posted by MrXYZ


YOU claim they're all a product of intelligence. In no way have you ever backed that up! That's not how science works, but you seem too dense to understand that.

I provided logical evidence, hence there are absolutely no other instances in this universes where laws have come to existence without intelligence.

I don't think you really understand the difference between belief and fact...or reality and fiction for that matter. Fantasy land might be fun, but I encourage you to try reality at least for a bit...it's awesome

I'm still waiting for you to conduct your experiment to prove that laws can come to existence without intelligence. I have proven clearly that every instance of law that we have, is either unknown, or intelligence, the conclusion weighs on the creator side

And you claiming we don't understand trees in the 21st century has to be the most idiotic thing I read on these forums today, thx for the laugh

edit on 31-10-2010 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

Please fill you coffee cup again..

Where did I say we don't understand trees lol.. I said what is the cause of a tree, where did it come from? Use the rule of cause and effect, it will take you back to the evolutionary timeline all the way back to the big bang, which has a big (unknown) stamped on it.

reply to post by oozyism


Last post because I'm officially giving up on you. Pointless discussing science with you, just like it's pointless to talk science with someone living in the 17th century or a 3 year old child. You're clearly not able/willing to use scientific method, so until that changes, discussing with you is about as useful for this thread as watching paint dry.

You did NOT provide any evidence that would make it fact that all systems are created. You mentioned a few (computers, cars, ...), and then added all systems where we don't know to those few you mentioned claiming they're now all magically created. Even a highschool student stoned out of his mind would see why these statements are beyond retarded.

You can keep on claiming you have evidence, just like you could shout "pigs can fly" over and over again...but all it achieves is to show everyone how uneducated you are when it comes to science. Hell, you still believe the burden of proof is on me, when it's you who is talking in absolutes ("there is a creator"). The burden of proof is on you, but it's clear you can't understand that since you don't even understand basic scientific method.

Regarding the coffee jokes: You already made one yesterday, and that was pretty "meh" on the funny scale. Repeating the same jokes about 3 times in less than 24hrs isn't witty...it's kinda douchey

Anyway, good luck living in your fantasy world Mr Hovind

reply to post by MrXYZ


So this was your last post, and I actually thought you had something up your sleeves.. zzz

and again I will say you talk a lot about science, yet you failed to scientifically prove one simply point "do laws come to existence without intelligence".

Yet all evidence suggests they come through intelligence, and you are still talking about science? Being an Atheist, or agnostic doesn't mean you are automatically a scientist

All men are mortal,
and
Aristotle is a man;
therefore
Aristotle is mortal.

Prove that all men are not mortal.

All laws are product of intelligence,
and
the universe is filled with laws,
therefore
the universe is the product of intelligence.

Prove that all laws are not products of intelligence. It is actually as simple as that

Heard of Syllogism

Bye professor.

[effective doublepost]