Heaven and Hell? Tell what you actually think these are and what happens "there." Seriously.

I was driving my 5 year old son home from school today. We were discussing the clouds, which looked majestic at that moment, when he said, "I think heaven is in the clouds and that's where Auntie Sarah is." It got me thinking, really thinking. Combine that with the news today of the survey of the knowledge of the "faithful," which was found to be very lacking among most all faiths about their own religions. All this had me wondering, for those that truly and sincerely believe in Heaven and Hell, I have a question. I do not want to know WHY you believe. I would like to know WHAT you believe these "places" are specifically. If you believe in them, then isn't that acknowledging a belief in an alternate universe of some sort? Is that what you think they are? WHAT do you expects happens there? In heaven will you be in human form, doing your favorite things? Does boredom exist (forever is a long time!)? Is it another universe that does not follow laws of physics (that the religious will say God created) with infinite room for the righteous across eternity? Will you be hanging out with ancestors going back through time? Do you imagine you will be some form of energy? Will you be sitting by Jesus? But aren't there billions in front of you? What about Hell? Eternal burning? What are the mechanics of that? I mean these questions in all sincerity because I suspect VERY few have actually REALLY thought about what goes on in heaven or hell other than the stock answers from religious books, all of which are general.

I hope these are questions that will provoke some thoughtful responses and the occasional, you know, I never really thought about it.

Simply they do not exist. It's not that difficult to believe in Heaven and Hell. It is difficult to understand these concepts though. People have different views on Heaven and Hell. Or just an afterlife.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


I understand people have different views. I was hoping to learn what those views are in detail, as in what they expect to actually occur there.

reply to post by pajoly
Pajoly,

Well Christians know there is a Heaven and is the place of the True Jerusalem where Yahweh the King of Israel dwells. That is the Highest Heaven, others below it. If you believe the Bible here is a revealing verse -

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

LORD in all caps refers to the Divine Name, Yahweh, and you can see two are brought out but are declared God, it seems the two are speaking as one. As you can see Yahweh of Hosts, our Redeemer was also the Eternal One, His Name is also Yahweh!

Hell can be defined as death and death and hell are finally cast into the lake of fire and be no more. -

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
De 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Notice "a consuming fire", means there is an utter end.

Hoping this helps.

Search for Truth and you will find it, as He and It are searching for you.

Truthiron

reply to post by pajoly


Hell: Torment and tears

Heaven: Worship and fellowship

Good thread. I've given this a lot of thought in the past six months, though it has been a subject of interest for a long time.

A basic Christian belief is in the resurrection of the body, as Christ's was resurrected. However, there are conflicting arguments as to whether this happens immediately after death, or awaits the Second Coming of Christ, when he reclaims the Earth. My personal belief is the second, meaning that we are non-material until then.

One thing that I think certain about Heaven is that it cannot be a place of finite possibilities, because of "getting bored." Eternity or everlasting life (not really the same thing, but why quibble?) are infinite, so we can't apply a finite view of things into that. Persons who view Heaven as nothing more than sitting around and singing songs have a pretty infantile view of things, in my opinion.

My wife and I loved to explore. I chomp at the bit, considering that in Heaven, we may be able to explore, not just this country, or this Earth, but the whole of the Universe. We loved to create, to cook, to talk, to learn, and I can't imagine an afterlife that doesn't include the opportunity to do all of that and more.

I believe, very strongly, in the ability of those who have passed to "stay in touch" with those left behind. I have personal experience with that, so whatever form we take, where ever we happen to be, we will not be far from those that we love.

Hell, meh, I give that little thought, as the alternative is far more interesting. Personally, I would prefer it was simple oblivion, rather that eternal punishment, but it is what it is, and my perspective won't change that.

reply to post by truthiron


Okay, so heaven is where Yahweh, the True King of Israel reigns. So what happens there? If you go there if you are saved, then what do you expect to occur. Will you have some consciousness? If so, consciousness has to be occurpied doing something. What? Is there time there? Are all the souls mingled and combined with Yahweh and if so, what does that mean? I am trying to drill down because I sense those who do believe have not really given thought to what occurs in heaven or is that even the right question?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by pajoly

 

Hell: Torment and tears

Heaven: Worship and fellowship

Okay, NOTurTypical, so please tell more. Worship and fellowship? For all eternity? How? Do you conceive yourself as standing in unity with all saved souls? It sounds like you expect consciousness, so wouldn't this get boring. Eternity is a long time.

reply to post by adjensen


Thank you adjensen for your thoughtful reply, which includes the interesting notion: "We loved to create, to cook, to talk, to learn, and I can't imagine an afterlife that doesn't include the opportunity to do all of that and more."

So you have some sort of corporal expectations, some human-like pleasures. Do you think all who go there are free to do their favorites things? If so, this must be a place with physical laws? Or would a more accurate concept be a forever dream.

And if you can stay connected to the living, that further implies some type of memory and the ability to mark time.

I am trying to prod and be provokative (in the good sense), because I am unable to reconcile little that gets explained to me in terms of peoples' opinions, beliefs since most beliefs inject some sort of corporal reality which directly seems to contradict the non-corporal side of their beliefs.

Originally posted by pajoly
reply to post by adjensen

 

Thank you adjensen for your thoughtful reply, which includes the interesting notion: "We loved to create, to cook, to talk, to learn, and I can't imagine an afterlife that doesn't include the opportunity to do all of that and more."

So you have some sort of corporal expectations, some human-like pleasures. Do you think all who go there are free to do their favorites things? If so, this must be a place with physical laws? Or would a more accurate concept be a forever dream.

I have no evidence to validate my speculation, these are more statements of hope and expectation. However, my speculation is based on some bit of reasoning.

First, I think it unlikely that we would find an existence completely different from this one, utterly foreign. We are a unique species, God seems to like us, he even became one of us, so I feel that a continuation of a similar existence is more likely than, say, us being "absorbed" into God and losing our individuality.

Secondly, God likes to create, and I think that he enjoys seeing what we come up with for our own creations, whether they be scientific discoveries, paintings, music, inventions, and so on. So it seems likely that this would continue, perhaps extended to those who weren't able to create in this life (I cannot, for example, play a musical instrument, though I would like to very much, it would be nice if I could do so in Heaven.)

Finally, there needs to be a way to resolve some basic questions of human nature without significantly changing us. God doesn't subtract, so I think it unlikely that we will have emotions or wants (or needs, for that matter) suddenly taken away from us. Rather, it seems more likely that we will have our wants and needs met by that "infinite possibilities" concept -- if we were able to instantly convert energy to matter or otherwise make things on a whim, materialism is non existent. How can I envy my neighbour's television if I can just whip up my own?

Again, abject speculation, no better or worse than any other you might hear.

And if you can stay connected to the living, that further implies some type of memory and the ability to mark time.

As I said, eternity and everlasting life are two different things. In the first, you are outside of time. In the second, you are still in time, there is just nothing to "close the book" on your existence. No disease, injuries either not possible or instantly healed, etc.

The first one is the tricky one to deal with, because it is very difficult, if not impossible, to conceptualize.

As for memories, Near Death Experiences almost universally show that we will meet our loved ones in the afterlife, and they know who we are. Our memories are a big part of who we are, so it seems highly unlikely that they would be taken away from us.

Heaven and Hell are states of mind!

"As above, so below"