Red Dot vs. Scope vs. Sure Shot vs. iron sights...

Originally posted by aliengenes
pistols are pretty useless when someone is shooting back at you. a good shorty HK or AR with ghost rings will do nicely. if your using a tactical scope just remember to keep both eyes open as you move and shoot

Pistols have saved my life twice in supposedly secured areas.

Thats what I get for leaving my rifle on the tank, even though I don't think it would have made much of a difference. One case I outdrew him w/i 10m, one case I was too close for him to hit me with the AK (ran into each other coming around a corner).

And keep in mind in "real life" all you can carry most of the time is a pistol. I've carried one every day since I was old enough to have a license. Real shorty rifles require a tax stamp too, which makes them too expensive to justify something I can only use intermittently.

Originally posted by WhiteOneActual

Why would you field a sight that can't be zeroed? Does it even count as a sight?

Agreed. The idea was to allow the soldier to still defend himself at close quarters if the main sight broke. The EBS is a simple post blade and a ring rear sight on top of the SUSAT. When the UK introduced the SA80 the idea of having a scope as the primary sight for a standard infantry weapon was very new. There was no real research into any sort of dual sighting options, and no one really knew what they were doing. They were still a bit worried about the sight breaking so they just slapped a makeshift piece of rubbish on top. As a matter of interest I have yet to hear of any SUSAT housings or glass ever breaking in the nearly 30 years they have been in service. Not bad.

Not to sound crass, but the vast majority of people that I have pointed a rifle at are now dead and thus will not be testifying at my trial for not using some sort of technologically enhanced aiming device.

It's not the dead you worry about, it's the families/government. Imagine a shooting that involves you and an attacker. In the course of the fight a bystander is killed by one of your stray rounds (it does happen). A jury can make your life much harder if you decide you didn't need the various sighting options made available to you that can enhance your shooting no matter how good you are. Remember most juries aren't gun people. They just see that you didn't use a sight that makes you "better" (no matter if this is true or not).

This isn't to knock iron sights, just opening up some consideration points.

I shoot pistols, and I like the lasers a lot; I've got them on everything but my 12 gauge, which has a pistol grip and 18 and 3/4 inch barrel, so it kind of makes sights unnecessary in a close combat situation, LOL.

I can hold the pistol close in to the body and get an accurate sight without having to extend my arms and line up the iron sights, so if I'm inside and going around corners and such, it's less likely an intruder could make a grab for the gun, plus it gives me a free hand to fend off any such attempt while I get the lead flying.

That said, on the range I follow the rule of thumb a previous poster stated: practice 25% with the fancy sights, but 75% with the tried and true iron sights, just in case.

My Sig has tritium iron sights good for another ten years, so I have a back up for low-light conditions if the laser should fail.

The main thing in my opinion is whatever sight solutions you use, practice, practice and practice.

I'd also say that if you have a weapon strictly for home / self defense, then go on a run and do some pushups really fast to get the adrenaline flowing - ie try to simulate the body's stress reaction to the shock of finding yourself in a combat situation - before and during range practice, and include fast double-taps in your practice schedule.

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


Great stuff my friend! I love the drop in info gem of running or doing push ups to case stress on the body. I remember the first time I was shot at... That type of training would have been well needed. But luckily I had a 50 cal cover firing...

This I would recomend for advance sighting. Not for the weekender, but you are correct, for someone who is practicing for a reason. Shooting bowling pins does not require this training.

But great stuff like I mentioned.

reply to post by Jkd Up

Scopes are only needed for long distance shooting typically.

The MIL dot scope allows you to look at distant objects and compare
the sizes of known objects to the number of dots in the view window
and get a rough guess on range so you can estimate your drop.

I have not messed with the laser sights for pistols, thou I can see their
appeal they can fail for a few reasons, water, batteries, etc.

For short to mid range I'd say stay reliable and use iron sights, cheaper too.

For long range iron sights as backup to a nice scope, and a lot of military
shooters recommend a fixed 10x scope because its easier to calculate your
tables on the fly in your head.

www.rifleshootermag.com...

Some have gone another route and stuck an Ipod touch on the side of their long range rigs.

cdn.iphonebuzz.com...

But it is likely even more vulnerable to failure than the laser dot sights.

I just wanted to say
I have a laser on my daily carry gun
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/1cd5de0374ec.jpg[/atsimg]

here's the thing... in full sunlight you don't see that little red dot...
however it works very well in the shadows or low light circumstance...
TIP once you get it sighted in put a drop of loc-tight or nail polish on the set screws so it stays in zero...

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


The only accessory I ever put on a pistol is a tritium iron sight set. Try seeing your black-colored iron sights at night. Along with tritium iron sights, I include a tactical flashlight with glass breaker using the Harries technique:



That glass breaker gives you the option for quick hand-to-hand strike-- blind and smash face. Eventually, I'd like a dedicated flashlight on my pistol. But it'll have to wait until I can afford one. There are other priorities.

As for laser sights, they do serve their purposes... when they function 100%. Like optics, lots of things can go wrong -- misalignment, dry battery, burned out bulb, etc. In my humble opinion, laser sights true purpose these days is intimidation. Who cares if the laser sight is not zeroed? Use your iron sights. But still use that laser sight to intimidate your target. Most criminals would think twice when a laser is pointing at their face. Against groups, aim laser sight at the alpha of the group.

reply to post by DaddyBare


Thank you for bringing that up. Something that I noticed, however, I am not sure if people are aware: If you are trying to compensate for a lack of training by using a laser sight, in sunlight, it will not help. Even the higher output ones are very difficult to see. Conversly, in total darkness, it is also hard to use a laser without being able to get a clear outline of the object you are shooting at.

Thanks again!

Something I notice again and again is how scopes are only used for distance shooting, however, SWAT and special forces use red dot and like aids that treat very close to scopes. Do these gain any advantage to short range combat (up to 150 yards), or is their need nigated by good marksmanship from the same range?

reply to post by WhiteOneActual


"Bravo24" to "whiteoneactual" Do you copy? Your signal is 5X5. Great post. The weapon and the gear needed in the field is determined by the mission statement, the mission target, terrain etc. "Scoped rifles", are used to engage targets at extreme or long range ONLY. Within 400 yards, "iron sights" (Combat Hardened). In the event that the "enemy has NVG's, (even 1st gen); anyone "lighting" up a laser or FLIR just gave away their position. (Third man on a match) Boom!...you're dead. "Passive Light" systems only! Weapon of choice for SCO; "SOCOM II" (oh yeah!) (Uh Rah!) Sniping at 1700 yards: "Akley Improved" .300 Winchester Magnum (16.25 lbs with scope, 30 inch Lilja barrel)
Trench gun: FNH M&P Tactical 12 gauge pump 7 round capacity. Up close and personal: Springfield Armory XD tactical 5 inch barrel 12 round capacity.: Silent; "Whispering Death" use the TAC-15 "In your face" KBAR/ SOG, tomahawk, machete".

"In my opinion, unless you're planning on long range work or guiding in air support, save your money on optics and cool-guy crap and invest it in ammo. Take your rifle to the range and actually learn how to shoot it"


"Give me two up....."6"..........give me one right.........."send it" when ready". "Target eliminated with the highest probability of hit".

Your last comment is absolutely correct.

"Bravo24" out


Scoutsniper

reply to post by guppy


www.nightvisionus.com...
www.opticsplus.net...
www.epinions.com...
www.x20.org...

A prepared enemy using NVG's (even 1G) will see any form of light source. You just gave away your position.
Boom! You are dead!. "Passive light systems" only. Using the ATN/PS 22 system (front mounted passive light scope) will allow you to engage your target from 600 yards in darkness. Use your ballistic advantage. Never turn on any light at night. Would you be willing to bet "your life" that your enemy is not using NVG's? Why take that risk? Take him out at 600 yards. There is your " Intimidator". ATN/PVS 14 3g systems work just fine. No one saw you, heard you, felt you, or smelt you until the shot was released. Be a "ghost" "+". After the shot, "evaporate" into thin air. Leave nothing behind......not even your breath. In the event that the enemy is "entrenched and well fortified", engage him with mortars, airburst artillery or possibly an airstrike first. "Soften the target". Don't be a fool and "rush in". Thats how guys get killed. "Dead", you are useless. Stay alive using your wits.


Scoutsniper

Its been mentioned in a few posts, but i will repeat. I have been working on this topic for years.

The best sighting optic in my opinion is an eotech. Some will say aimpoint, and they are great. But aimpoint is flawed, in that you are "aim" ing at a "point". You have no peripheral vision without looking up. Any one that has ever aimed through a scope at a running deer will see the obvious disadvantage.

Now eotechs have their disadvantages. They take batteries, and are not magnified. SO, you over come that. A 3x magnifier on a quicktwist mount, AND backup, flip up sights.

i have an AR-15 carbine with a free float handguard. I have troy flip up sights(front and back). I have an eotech 512 with a 3x aimpoint magnifier on a quicktwist mount.

So you are in a firefight. With an eotech only, you can aim through the very large, parallax free(means your eye can look through at any angle and you will still hit whatever you aim at). You also can leave both eyes open. This all is great for fast, close battle.

If needed you put your 3x magnifier on your rifle. The mount I use is the quicktwist mount. There is a small metal peg that stays mounted on your rifle. You reach into your vest or pocket and pull out the 30mm magnifier. You seat it and twist, and it locks on. Takes 10 seconds if you are very slow and deliberate. I can do it in 5. This magnifier sits directly in front of your eye, with the eotech mounted next. This gives a very clear, close up view, with a parallax free illuminated reticle still in view. I can hit 2 liter bottles of water at 200 yards effortlessly.

And also mounted, you have backup sights. i like these as they are very fast and easy to use.

one last thing. Google "co witnessing". basically you sight in your iron sights, and then move the eotech reticle to match. If your eotechs batteries were to fail in a firefight, you flip up your sights and still get the added advantage of sighting through the large window of the eotech. I have practiced this, and its much more effective than just iron sights.

reply to post by Helig


I love both the x3 flip combo and, of course, the ACOG.

I'm in the market for a Springfield M1A. The bigger bullet and the best irons on the market are very appealing. The rifle will reach out further than I can see. The problem is that I think the Eotech flip combo is for 5.56 strictly. The ACOG is poor for CQB though.

I wonder if the ACOG can be mounted to a flip over mount? Or would we be required to mount the little dot to the top of it?

reply to post by Jkd Up


In a bug-out type of situation the only way to go (in my opinion, at least) would be a good set of tritium back-up irons as well as a non-electronic optic in the vein of the ACOG. ACOGs use a tritium tube situated along the top to illuminate the reticle. Pretty cool tech also if you ask me, but a bit pricey.

If you have the money the Eotech co-witness is very nice.

Only have one that is digitally encumbered.

AK with ultimak. I dont have the co-witness set up but a medium sized cluster. It carries a holo, hi intensity flashlight and laser as a 1 piece cluster. With the ultimak its in the correct position to work all the controls easily without a bunch of stupid coil wires and pressure switches. Very clean looks and workings. Suitable for any situation. But the onboard hex key drops it to irons in about 25 seconds. Its my all around fantasy rifle but in the real world....it drops to iron every year and gets a 5 rd mag to bring home the venison and elk which it does flawlessly.

In the past year, I sold off, traded or gifted the rest of them. Just refuse to babysit clean and maintain them. Some other chump can waste his weekends checking for rust and applying lube. Sold the gunsafe as well. cable locks now. No safe queens for me. Not getting saddled with optics that cant be stripped off and thrown away either.

A gun is a pretty simple device. Going back to iron in less than a minute should be part of the plan from the beginning.

Remember the old scopes from the 50s and 60s? they had those big thumb wheels holding them on the rails for a reason. So you were seconds away from iron if you had to.

Long time JU,

For what ever it is worth, all have their pros and cons.

I LOVE my Aimpoint Comp3/4. Awesome piece of equipment, nothing works faster for getting on target under 200 meters. Past that, the dot gets too big to be reliable on 18" at the shoulder.

Iron sights are dependable but are a little slower and not much use pass a few hundred meters either.

To go long, you need glass and mil-dot. Not fast, but that is not their function.

Any recipe for a firearm and aiming device is a balance. Your mission determines which way the balance needs to swing. There is no "one perfect solution". I wish there was, it would save me money But it would take away the fun of "needing" stuff

reply to post by scoutsniper


Sorry for this tangent discussion.

I agree scoutsniper. When using taclights, there is a concept that goes with it. Its called "light discipline". I was taught as soon as you turn on a taclight, MOVE! Accidentally turned it on for 1/2 second, MOVE! Turned on your taclight to identify your possible target, MOVE! Why? Because lights are bullet magnets.

That's why in movies and TV, I always find myself yelling at the screen. You always see police patrolling the dark alley with their light constantly on. Such a No-No. You should only use your taclight for identifying or distracting your enemy. Rely more on your natural night vision.

Back to topic: I do prefer the EOTECH or any non-magnified optics which you can co-witness with iron sights (flip-up). Always have a backup plan of a backup plan.

Magnified (even low-powered) optics never fit my style of defense combat. Since I train mostly for CQB, magnified optics, like ACOGs, seem inefficient for my style. With ACOG's 3.4x scope, I find myself searching for my target more than I would with an EOTECH. EOTECH is a simple, both-eyes-open platform. Simple and fast in CQB scenarios.

As for engagements out in the field (+100 yards), you can still do well with an EOTECH or iron sights. You just need to train yourself more often with various ranges. If you know your bullet's ballistic, then its almost a no-brainer to engage targets up to 400 yards with iron sights. I suggest getting a ballistic calculator and learn your primary weapon's ballistics. Then go out to the range and test yourself.