Murder/suicide, young suicide. Route of the problem? Solution to the problem?

This is a discussion thread on two separate topics. The first is on murder suicides. Unless you have been avoiding the news, you know that there have been school attacks, home attacks, random store attacks and etc. If there is a place you can think of, it's likely that someone had a gun there, shot people down and then killed themselves. As any good criminologist or psychologist will say, humans are well capable of killing others and well capable of killing themselves in altered mental states or altered situations. However, what they will also tell you is that people are mentally ill if they kill without reason or without remorse. The real situation is that anything can cause someone to be a murder/suicide culprit, because it's not about the issue, it's about how the issue affects the individual. So the real question becomes, what in society, in early childhood and so on, might be responsible for strange weaknesses to pop up? For instance, it hasn't been very long that these murder/suicides have been so prevalent especially for reasons such as bullying, loss of job, etc. Before then, you might be bullied, but you either fought the kid, stood up to him or you gave into their bullying. Now you have people bringing guns to school and killing the bully plus tons of random people. It wasn't long ago that if you were fired, you might get upset, you might beat the crap out of the manager or holler at them or you might let it go and find another job, but you certainly didn't go to the workplace and go on a random killing rampage. The question is, what's changed? Why is this all happening?

Second is young suicides. You probably have also heard about a lot more teenage suicides than ever before and for what I think most of us would identify as bad reasons. Of course, we can all agree or disagree on the concept that suicide ever has a good reason, but that's not the point. As you know, it's not about the reason itself, it's about how hard the reason hits the individual. Teens are killing themselves over relationships, school, bullies, etc. It wasn't too long ago and it's still prevalent today that people get over such problems, no matter how hard they are. So here's my question as with the other issue. Is it something in early childhood? Is it something in society? What the hell is going on, my friends?

As I said, this is a discussion forum. I will give my own opinions later on, likely, but this is out of curiosity, but also out of bringing intelligent and insightful heads together to discuss this issue. Obviously the externals are not the problem, it's the individuals. This is something not often said by news stations or any 'professional' shows and such. Feel free to debate amongst yourselves, just please keep insults and such out. This topic is about finding solutions, not about petty differences. Keep it civil. Thanks.

The Protector

It's a very simple explanation.
POVERTY.

No means to survive leads people to believe that they are being attacked and must defend themselves.
Mix the whole socialist/revolutionary aspect into the mix, and/or plain sociopathic tendencies, and you end up with Murder suicides. People who brake down because they loose all hope, they see no future, and/or they just hate people real bad. Some people can't control their emotions and impulses unfortunately.

Why don't we see rich people committing mass murder?
I don't count business, nor do I count politics into the mix,
I'm talking bout people who live in rich neighborhoods.

Murder suicide occurs, as i have read, when someones ego is hurt to the point where they will kill the group they hate, and then themselves.

Teen Suicide, is mostly from noise and confusion. Little mind sets we like to put ourselves in to make others lower on the social hierarchy scale. Anything from not getting the lover you wanted, to being bullied to the extreme.

I had a fried who committed suicide in high school. What stuck me with surprise, is that he had a beautiful girlfriend, a hockey scholarship, amazing grades, and was more poplar than everyone i know. Not popular as in everyone looks up to him, but popular as in everyone can't stand but to love this guys character.

His suicide puzzled everyone. But it was not until i went through the same thing did i realize what he was going through.

He was a thinker. As most here on ATS. His constant pondering of existence eventually led to his curiosity of death. And sadly, that overtook all curiosities. He did not leave a note. Which tells me he did not do it for attention, or to get back at someone.

However, he did leave a few notes from a few weeks back. All pointing to his suicide on the basis of happiness, not sadness or depression.

Waste of a life, i really wish he hadn't done it. Great guy.

So, in a nut shell, Suicide in general happens when something is out of balance. Be it someone feeding off of your energy (bully, moocher, so on) or be it you being overly curious. All in all, suicide has been around for a very long time, and there is no telling what implications it had a couple thousand years ago, but i can't imagine it being very different from today.

I think the pharmaceuticals might have SOMETHING to do with it.

Also, society today (especially in the western world) is desensitized to a lot. It's common place to see messed up stuff on your television or computer. People don't realize what they are subliminally letting themselves getting sucked into.

Pharmaceuticals might indeed have a hand in it as well.
You could as easily blame society for it's decadence along with
sexual tensions, perversions. politics, economy, religion and
people being aholes in general.

The rates of homicide and suicide in countries don't seem to tally at all, so I don't know if you can explain both with one thing

For Homicide the 5 countries with the highest rate are
El Salvador
Honduras
Jamaica
Guatemala
Venezuela

The 5 lowest are
Hong Kong
Japan
Singapore
Iceland
Liechtenstein

The suicide table looks very different with the highest being
Belarus
South Korea
Lithuania[
Kazakhstan
Japan

and the lowest
Honduras
Jordan
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Antigua and Barbuda
Haiti

Interestingly Honduras is very high on the homicide list and very low on the suicide list while Japan is the exact opposite, lots of suicides and very few murders.

The top five homicide countries definitely seem to conform to the "poverty" idea, as they are all pretty poor countries. The suicide list is more of a mixture of rich and poor countries though... I wonder what is so bad about Belarus

Generally speaking ,i think it always comes to the poverty gap,which is the fundamental root of murder,suicide.

I think there is also a cultural thing with suicide though, particularly in Japan where Suicide isn't considered "cowardly" or bad as it is in most countries.
The Samurai had a ritual called Seppuku where it was more honorable to kill yourself then to fall into enemy hands and even now it is seen as something that could be "noble" if it is done to avoid facing being dishonored.
(It all sounds a bit Klingon I know)
There is a famous forest in Japan called Aokigahara which is the worlds second most popular suicide spot where one year they found 78 suicides and stopped another 83 attempted suicides.
The Golden Gate bridge in SF is the most popular place in the world to kill yourself by a mile though.
If you kill yourself by jumping in front of a train in Japan then the rail company sends your relatives a fine depending on how much business they lost link

No... I'm referring to murder suicides, not murders and suicides separately but the act of going on a killing spree and then killing yourself afterwards. Hope that clears it up.

The Protector

reply to post by The Protector


This is the problem with people, you talk of one thing they understand another.
The worst part is we're all speaking English.
Do you have anything to say about my post?

Anyone who has thoughts of killing there self or anyone else has serious mental problems and should seek help ASAP! Was this a problem 30,40,or 50 years ago? I think a lot of the youth today are to sensitive and are not very thick skinned. I kinda feel like people who commit suicide are quitters. Life deals everyone bad breaks. Sure some more bad breaks than others, but no one lives a life with out facing adversity. It is very sad that some people believe this to be there only option to deal with their problems.

Originally posted by topdog30
Anyone who has thoughts of killing there self or anyone else has serious mental problems and should seek help ASAP! Was this a problem 30,40,or 50 years ago? I think a lot of the youth today are to sensitive and are not very thick skinned. I kinda feel like people who commit suicide are quitters. Life deals everyone bad breaks. Sure some more bad breaks than others, but no one lives a life with out facing adversity. It is very sad that some people believe this to be there only option to deal with their problems.

Clearly, you have never been severely depressed. Imagine if you will, sitting in a doctors office eagerly awaiting your x ray results for a fractured bone. The doctor has grim news, you have lung cancer and have a 50/50 shot at surviving. Your mom just died the day before. Now, imagine feeling like that 24/7 . So then you go to a doctor and get an SSRI which does the trick, but eventually you get off because you don't like feeling like a drugged out zombie all day and now you are even worse than you were before. That is what it is like to be suicidal. You are not insane, your mind is just extremely tired spiritually, it needs dramatic change, but it's almost impossible as severe depression can sometimes feel like 800 pound weights are chained to your body and you can't go anywhere. You start hating everyone and everything, and people treat you like crap because that's how people are. You start feeling like the world wants you to kill yourself, and all these other jacked up thoughts that I won't get into right now... The important thing to remember about this, is these thoughts are not true in the slightest.

reply to post by topdog30


Sounds to me like you are an extremely closed minded individual
who had everything handed to him on a silver platter from day one.
In other words, you are incapable of understanding what it's like
to have nothing, be abused by everyone around you, go homeless,
have nowhere to turn to, be hungry but have no money,
things like these make your brain think paranoid thoughts.
Sleep near a dumpster, hungry, afraid that you'll be picked up by police
and thrown in a cell for committing the crime of being homeless,
then come back here and attempt at repeating what you just wrote.
Many people who commit crime are actually just poor to begin with.
I bet if you gave every poor person 100k their lives would turn around
dramatically. Probably most of them would almost immediately go back to school,
or do a trade of some sorts. Of course there's the percentage that would waste it on drugs,
not everyone is cut out to live a normal life I guess.

reply to post by Radekus


So I'm closed minded because I don't think killing your self is the answer to your problems?

Whats with the personal attack? You have know idea what anyone on here has been through to make any kind of accusations.

I do not believe suicide is the answer. Like I said, the people who have these kind of thoughts need to seek mental help because their mind is not in a good place.

Please define a normal life?

Is a normal life what is presented to you on TV?

As I provided all sorts of wrongness in my first posts, I will try to correct it.

Theres an interesting study on Murder - suicides here www.vpc.org/studies/amroul2006.pdf (I won't hotlink it as it's a pdf)

The study says that the vast majority of the 1500 murder suicides in America each year are committed by men and usually involves them killing their wives / girlfriends or sometimes there whole families and then themselves.

It also states that the prime cause of them is real or suspected infidelity.

I guess the French would classify this as "A crime of passion" someone being driven to the point of madness by their jealousy and reaching breaking point resulting in something like a psychotic break from rationality .

reply to post by topdog30


I believe that you misinterpreting what I wrote.
To quote you:

Anyone who has thoughts of killing there self or anyone else has serious mental problems and should seek help ASAP!

Then after I explain to you that you are probably incapable of understanding such an individual,
Since you blatantly point out that this person should seek help,
I'll rephrase what I said earlier and answer with: what kind of help? Personal loan?
Psychologists that actually do anything cost money. I hope you see the paradox.
This is why I offered a monetary solution to the problem.

So I'm closed minded because I don't think killing your self is the answer to your problems?

No, you're closed minded for refusing to understand such an individual.
A cornered animal will fight back. People who commit murder/suicides
feel like they are under attack and must defend themselves,
because if they don't they will die anyways. I hope that makes sense.
I don't believe in mental illness, The communist party in Europe threw
political opposition in mental institutes. So rather calling it an illness,
I'll call it conclusions that stem from personal experience, makes sense?
The root of all this murder chaos of course is poverty, along with a ton of
other social issues that would be wayyyy to long to discuss here.
by the way, I in no way condone the behavior of suicidal maniacs,
I have a critical mind and merely wish to understand and propose solutions
to the ever increasing problem.

Whats with the personal attack? You have know idea what anyone on here has been through to make any kind of accusations.

I was making a logical guess about your life experience regarding to your reaction to the topic at hand.
I apologize if it came out as an attack.

I do not believe suicide is the answer. Like I said, the people who have these kind of thoughts need to seek mental help because their mind is not in a good place.

What kind of help would you propose?

Please define a normal life?

Good career, loving family, a house, a few cars, enough money to live comfortably, and maybe a dog or two.

Is a normal life what is presented to you on TV?

I haven't watched television in over a decade.

If you want to discuss what a normal life is, we could open up a whole new thread about it.
Of course, all we'd share are unprovable theories, myths and folktales of what it used to be back in the good ol'
days when we didn't have technology nor an overbearing government.

reply to post by davespanners


Makes sense, but that only covers interpersonal relationships,
The OP was mentioning wackos running around on the street
thinking they're playing the next expansion pack to grand theft auto.

Thank you Radekus for bringing this topic back around, I do indeed become annoyed with ridiculous quarrels in the middle of serious conversation. I feel it's a good time for me to now express my own opinions on the subject.

In reference to murder suicides, which again, is when someone goes on a killing spree and then ends it themselves by the extermination of the perpetrator... there are some things to consider. Let's start with one concept of where this murder suicide thing comes from. First, I think we all can acknowledge that in the case of a murder suicide situation, the perpetrator and last victim are very emotionally and mentally 'out of whack'. Now, I want to emphasize that this does not imply they are insane, disturbed or such. Simply put, they are in a dangerous mindset for themselves as well as their co-inhabiters of planet Earth. Secondly, I want to refer to a way of thinking which is found in warfare. This way of thinking is 'If I'm going down, I'm taken some with me'. This, of course is in reference to the perceived enemy. This mindset is pretty much consistent with 'I'm not going down without a fight', which is an excellent mindset when your speaking of being taken down by external means. If the person is fighting internally, if they go down, it should be them alone as it was only their battle. Look, I don't claim to know the in's and out's of the human brain, especially when referring to a specific person, but I can make some inferences and observations based on what I do know. One such observation is that perhaps the cause of suicide is different for people who have murdered just beforehand, rather than the cause of a lone suicide...victim(that seems to me what they are).

I'll give you a limited opinion on what those causes are and why they may be arriving more in todays world. Limited to my current knowledge and limited to what I can know about both groups of individuals. In general the cause of suicide for someone who commits suicide without first going on a killing spree is unbearable depression, frustration or pain that the person decides cannot be endured any longer. Of course, I will say that the decision making process when deeply depressed, unbearably frustrated or in unbearable physical or emotional pain is altered a ton and therefore the decision is made out of desperation rather than anything else. Next, I see the suicide of a mass murderer differently. Why? Because in order to prepare to kill(bring a gun,etc.), plan to kill(load gun, etc.) and then follow through with attempting to kill requires something different than suicide. Why do I say this? Because before recently, most people in that much distress would attempt and often follow through with killing themselves, leaving behind no victims of their own attacks. That's why I created this thread, I wanted some input on what exactly that something else is. I think what will be found by us can be used to prepare people so that they won't go on a rampage due to their own inner quarrels.

Look, I believe that suicide is not a good choice. Why I believe this is because I believe life to be a rare and precious jewel that should be held on to at any cost. Within ourselves are strong survival instincts, which were once even stronger; and my belief is that we have those instincts to stay alive and for a good reason. Each creature holds onto life, even if just by the very end of the fingers, and simply that is in place for us because we are meant to live for as long as we can squeak out. My beliefs are my beliefs, simple as that. You have your own beliefs and they are yours. I don't wish to give mine away, so you don't need to like them. Unfortunately, I feel I have to explain this because way too many people will find a reason to get upset, offended or hurt by this topic and it's posts. If your one of those people, I'd like to respectfully say that you'll waste your time posting in this thread because I won't put up with the redundant, ridiculous, childish bantering back and forth. This thread is for serious discussion, serious and civil debate and above all, the possibility of problem solving this situation.

The Protector

reply to post by Radekus


The data was for all recorded murder suicides in the USA of which 74 percent are killings of partners /.family, I guess the other 26 percent are the kind you describe but try as I might I can't find any data on those types of killings, not a single study. I have no idea why

I wonder if maybe the data is not apparent because the killing of total strangers is a pretty unusual crime and I would find more data looking through cases of mass murderers rather then looking for specific info in murder / suicide.

I would have thought the least requirement for such an act would be quite an extreme form of sociopathic disorder.

Heres a couple of cases that fit what I think the OP means.

The Dunblane massacre wiki I should have thought of that one

and

Andrew Cunnan the guy that killed Gianni Versace i and at least 5 others wiki