Obama Birth Certificate; 'Document allegedly obtained in Kenya sent to every member of Congress'

Originally posted by lpowell0627
reply to post by lee anoma

 

Huh? Keep your posters and their comments straight please.

I was responding to what you said regarding my post.
I kept it straight.

You referenced that it was not known and/or not true that Obama went to college and received money to do so from a scholarship. I was merely pointing out the fact that, according to multiple credible sources, he did in fact receive a scholarship to attend college.

Wrong.
Please read the question you responded to again:

Originally posted by lee anoma

Do you have any proof he received foreign aid at all? Are you saying he "probably" got it so you demand proof that he didn't?

I said "foreign aid".
I know he received scholarships.
Most people have. The issue was if the scholarship was for foreign students.

Who in their right mind would argue that Obama didn't receive a scholarship for college and why would that ever matter?

That's the problem with these threads -- people are so focused on trying to 'win' the debate, they forget that there are actual facts involved and that not everything is merely a theory or made up drivel.

Or forget to actually read the posts they are responding to.
You however just answered my question now with this:

A financial aid scholarship for foreign students? I have no idea.

Right.

- Lee

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
]I don't know how harassed McCain was, but he did just simply provide his long form birth certificate, the type that some people claim people have no right to ask to see from Obama.

No one has claimed that people don't have a right to ASK. No one has EVER claimed that. The claim is that we have no right to see it and Obama has no obligation to show it to the public. That's just fact. That's our law.

Obama could authorize the state of Hawaii to release his long form certificate instead of the computer printout version if he wanted to,

No, he could not. That document is property of the state of Hawaii. It doesn't belong to Obama. I don't know if he can obtain a copy of the long form or not. As has been proven in this thread, the Hawaii Health Dept states that the long forms are no longer available. But Obama cannot direct the state of Hawaii to release anything.

Sure there's a debate about whether or not we have a right to see it

There is no debate on this. We have no right to see the personal and private papers of another American citizen without a warrant. His privacy rights are protected.

Truthers: "Then can you release whatever it is that Dr. Chiyome Fukino looked at to form the basis of the comment:

Obama: That is not mine to "release". It belongs to the State of Hawaii. Only a legal order could demand that Hawaii release that certificate - and then, it would be released to authorities, not published publicly on the Internet. Don't you know the laws?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The state officials don't have the authority to release the birth certificate without Obama's permission, so they are just doing their job by not releasing it, not in on it. Only Obama can supply the permission to release it.

Please show something that backs up this statement.

Originally posted by mothershipzeta
He released legal proof of his birth in Hawaii, complete with seals and official statements that it is a legitimate copy. Yet people say that one is fake. Why in the hell would releasing the long form result in Orly Taitz et al saying "Okay, he's legitimate?"

The interesting thing to me is, I don't see many people in this thread claiming his certification of birth posted online is a fake, though I have seen that claim online and laughed at it.

I see more people questioning why he just doesn't release the certificate. If you read the petition, that's all it asks for. If Obama posted the certificate of birth and factcheck verified its authenticity like they did the certification of birth, we could all laugh at the silly people who claim it's fake.

But it's hard for me to laugh at the people who ask why he doesn't just show some transparency like he promised and show the certificate of birth.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I must apologize because to be quite honest, I do not understand. What I see is a bunch of people sitting around holding their breath. These people are slowly dying from lack of oxygen when all they need to do is inhale. Instead of taking that breath, they are angrily shaking their fists at some invisible cabal of thousands of government illuminati masters for not allowing them to breathe. Just inhale.

I have not seen one thread on this topic that does not contain a link to Obama's birth certificate so if people are upset because they want to see it but cannot, then they are probably the same type of people that cannot find a companion and have decided to hate the opposite sex for their percieved hostility instead of washing and pulling up their pants before they leave the house.

I have seen it. Anyone with an internet connection can see it.

That is not really the point though, is it? You said that McCain was asked to show his and he just did. No, actually he did not. If he "just did" then there would not have needed to be a vote to decide if he could run, would there? If he "just did" then they would have "just said ok" but that is not what happened. McCain had to be DECLARED eligible to run even after he "just did" whip out his papers. Why? His papers were worthless.

Do you not get what that means? Obama has shown his papers and people are claiming they need more because what they got was worthless. When McCain showed his papers, the entire government decided they were worthless. Do you see the parallel yet?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The "long form" means it shows the place of birth and other details that aren't included on the "short form".

The short form shows the place of birth, too. Honolulu, Hawaii. If he was born somewhere else, it would say that.

Source

Opponents asserted that Hawaiian officials had not explicitly addressed the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii, and pointed to a provision of Hawaiian law that permits the issuance of certifications of live birth to those born outside the state or even outside the country. However, the suggestion that this could have applied to Obama was rejected by Okubo: "If you were born in Bali, for example, you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate."

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by mothershipzeta
He released legal proof of his birth in Hawaii, complete with seals and official statements that it is a legitimate copy. Yet people say that one is fake. Why in the hell would releasing the long form result in Orly Taitz et al saying "Okay, he's legitimate?"

The interesting thing to me is, I don't see many people in this thread claiming his certification of birth posted online is a fake, though I have seen that claim online and laughed at it.

I see more people questioning why he just doesn't release the certificate.

Because it is a certificate. Birth certificates have a variety of titles, one of them being "certification of live birth." That is what a birth certificate is. I think people are trying to say that they want to see his birth REGISTRATION which the certificate "certifies" exists and no amount of claiming the "certification" is not a birth certificate is going to get anyone a look at the original registration.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Please show something that backs up this statement.

Sure let me clarify:

hawaii.gov...

State law prohibits the DOH from disclosing any vital statistics records or information contained in such records unless the requestor has a direct and tangible interest in the record, or as otherwise allowed by statute or administrative rule.

So the DOH isn't authorized to show us either the long form OR the short form (certificate or certification). Obama as a person with a tangible interest in his own records is not prohibited from accessing his own records.

Obama (through his spokesman) said that it was posted online for people to see. Surely Obama provided permission for it to be posted online.

Obama could do the same thing with his certificate as he did with his certification. Obama probably has his own original birth certificate, because he wrote about having it in his book. So I doubt he would even need to go to the state of Hawaii to get it.

Originally posted by cindyremains
I must apologize because to be quite honest, I do not understand.
I have not seen one thread on this topic that does not contain a link to Obama's birth certificate

There are no links to Obama's birth certificate, the links are to his certification of live birth, it's the certificate of live birth people are asking to see, so you're right, you don't understand.

Look at this link to see the difference:

www.scribd.com...

From a distant point of view at this continental Europe side of the Atlantic..., just a guess on this issue: couldnt it all this just be one more try to undermine President Obama's legit right to presidency?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
So the DOH isn't authorized to show us either the long form OR the short form (certificate or certification). Obama as a person with a tangible interest in his own records is not prohibited from accessing his own records.

True. He can get a certification (which he has done and which he posted on the Internet).

Obama could do the same thing with his certificate as he did with his certification.

That's what I want proof of. That he can get a copy of his original long from certificate.

This is from YOUR POST on page 5 of this thread:

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

“Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.”
hawaii.gov...

They no longer issue them. Period.

Obama probably has his own original birth certificate, because he wrote about having it in his book. So I doubt he would even need to go to the state of Hawaii to get it.

He might or might not have it. He might have lost it. He might have it and not know where it is. These are all suspicions. The only fact is that he is under no obligation to show it and we have no right to see it.

In the beginning of my relationship, I used to ask my husband, "What are you thinking"? I'm sure most women do this at one time or another because we're insecure, curious, manipulative or just so in love that we want to know everything about him... But my husband is a private person and he made it very clear that his thoughts are his own... And while I have EVERY right to ASK about them, it is his decision and his decision alone to share them with me or not. WHY he may choose not to share them is also his and not mine to know.

Now, it took me some time to adjust to this privacy thing my husband had going on, but it taught me a great lesson. Each individual owns his thoughts and reasons. To demand that those be shared outside his head is a VIOLATION of that person. I learned to respect not only my husband, but it cemented in me what the right to privacy is all about.

And that is why I don't speculate as to why Barack Obama doesn't wish to move further in exposing the private facts of his life. They are PRIVATE. Any information about him that I have a right to, I already have. And much more. I know more about Barack Obama than I do about any other president.

So, people can speculate as to why Obama doesn't wish to share every detail of his past. But the fact is, it belongs to him and no one else! I will not speculate because anything I come up with has as much chance of being false as it does of being true. It's an exercise in futility.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by cindyremains
I must apologize because to be quite honest, I do not understand.
I have not seen one thread on this topic that does not contain a link to Obama's birth certificate

There are no links to Obama's birth certificate, the links are to his certification of live birth, it's the certificate of live birth people are asking to see, so you're right, you don't understand.

Look at this link to see the difference:

www.scribd.com...

Your link is just to another uninformed opinion and nothing else. You are just quite simply not versed on the various titles affixed to the top of a birth certificate. A "certification of live birth" is a birth certificate. I know this is confusing because they do not all just say "Birth Certificate" on them but the facts are the facts.

A certificate of birth, certificate of live birth, certification of birth, and certification of live birth are all birth certificates.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
There are no links to Obama's birth certificate, the links are to his certification of live birth, it's the certificate of live birth people are asking to see, so you're right, you don't understand.

Look at this link to see the difference:

www.scribd.com...

Come on....are you serious?

The comparison here to the Nordyke certificate is based on the look of a certificate from 1961.
Clearly this copy Obama has is not 49 years old.

It is a more recent computer generated copy of birth certificate.
A computer-generated Certification of Live Birth is all the State of Hawaii will issue any citizen.

FORMAT CHANGED

The standard "Certification of Live Birth" that Hawai'i health officials now issue — and was posted on Obama's campaign Web site — has less information than was required on the "Certificate of Live Birth" that Eleanor Nordyke was issued for each of her twin daughters on Aug. 5, 1961.

The modern-day birth certificates issued to anyone seeking their Hawaii birth records have spaces for the names and races of the parents, as well as information such as the time of birth.

Nordyke's 1961 birth certificates required much more information, such as the ages, occupations and birthplaces of the babies' parents.

Honolulu advertiser

I lost my Birth Certificate and just got a newer one. It doesn't look like the one I had for years.
This doesn't prove my birth certificate is fake if compared to my old one, just that they updated the computer generated template.

He may not have his original birth certificate anymore.
That should be quite obvious to anyone looking at the document he presented.

If he was such a master forger, do you really even think it would be hard for him to find out what a Hawaiian birth certificate looked like in 1961 with the resources he has, that I am sure eclipses both of ours?

Lets also not forget that there is a Birth Announcement from 1961 in a Hawaiian newspaper.
This Presidential conspiracy was hatched 49 years ago.

In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961

The announcement was posted by a pro-Hillary Clinton blogger who grudgingly concluded that Obama "likely" was born Aug. 4, 1961 in Honolulu.
1961 Obama Birth Announcemnt - Factcheck.org

I don't get why people act like the document he has is useless.
Are they simply providing Hawaiians with bogus invalid birth documents?

"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate."
- Hawaii Department of Health spokesperson, Janice Okubo

Oh okay.

- Lee

I haven't been reading all the posts arguing about the differences between a certificate vs certification, but here is the scoop.

NationMaster Encyclopedia - Birth Certificates

Short forms, known sometimes as computer certifications, are not universally available, but are cheaper than photocopies and much more easily accessible. Limited information is taken from the original birth record (the long form) and stored in a database that can be accessed quickly when birth certificates are needed in a short amount of time. Whereas the long form is a copy of the actual birth certificate, a short form is a document that certifies the existence of such certificate, and is usually titled a "Certification of Birth" or "Certificate of Birth Registration"

As to the legality of the "Certification of Live Birth":

. When the certification does include the names of the parents, it can be used in lieu of a long form birth certificate in almost all circumstances [2]. Nearly all states in the U.S. issue short forms certifications, on both state and local levels [8].

So, in essence, the Certification says - This paper certifies that we have the long form on record and that the information herein came directly from that long form. The certification is proof of the Certificate and contains the SAME information that is on the certificate.

If someone already posted this, I apologize, but I didn't want to read through all of it.

Originally posted by lee anoma
If he was such a master forger

I never claimed the certification of live birth was a forgery. In fact you are arguing against a lot of points I never made, as I think Obama was born in Hawaii. Are you reading my posts before replying to them?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I haven't been reading all the posts arguing about the differences between a certificate vs certification, but here is the scoop.

Thanks BH, I'm glad to see someone knows the difference!

I think the difference has been explained but that helps for all the people posting who don't seem to know the difference.

I don't think anybody is claiming it is a forgery. We are only claiming that it is simple to get without actually being born in the state. I could take a statement from a midwife that says my child was born at my house, and I could get a "certification" of birth in Hawaii. It would be sufficient for 95% of the things I would ever need it for, and it would not prove anything.

It isn't necessarily a forgery, it just isn't sufficient as evidence in a vacuum. It requires corroborating evidence to back it up, and that corroboration has only come from a couple of Hawaiian officials lips. Why hasn't it come from the State Department or Administration's official channels?

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Thanks BH, I'm glad to see someone knows the difference!

I think the difference has been explained but that helps for all the people posting who don't seem to know the difference.

Please read BH's post over and over and over and over again.

NationMaster Encyclopedia - Birth Certificates



Short forms, known sometimes as computer certifications, are not universally available, but are cheaper than photocopies and much more easily accessible. Limited information is taken from the original birth record (the long form) and stored in a database that can be accessed quickly when birth certificates are needed in a short amount of time. Whereas the long form is a copy of the actual birth certificate, a short form is a document that certifies the existence of such certificate, and is usually titled a "Certification of Birth" or "Certificate of Birth Registration"

Please, read it as many times as it takes to understand what it is saying. A short form, a long form, a certification, a certificate are all under the umbrella term "birth certificate." That is what they all are. They all certify that there is an original birth registration. The long form certifies this and the short form certifies this. That is what is says. Read the title.

Birth Certificates

It then goes on to explain what birth certificates are, IE a long form, a short form, and ones titled "certification."

It is all right there in print but it seems some people just want to believe there is some other secret here that does not exist.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Can you respond to these, please?

Post 1

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
The state officials don't have the authority to release the birth certificate without Obama's permission, so they are just doing their job by not releasing it, not in on it. Only Obama can supply the permission to release it.

Please show something that backs up this statement.

Post 2

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Source

Okubo: "If you were born in Bali, for example, you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate."

Post 3

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This is from YOUR POST on page 5 of this thread:

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

“Although original birth certificates (Certificates of Live Birth) are preferred for their greater detail, the State Department of Health (DOH) no longer issues Certificates of Live Birth. When a request is made for a copy of a birth certificate, the DOH issues a Certification of Live Birth.”
hawaii.gov...

They no longer issue them. Period.

AND

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Each individual owns his thoughts and reasons. To demand that those be shared outside his head is a VIOLATION of that person. I learned to respect not only my husband, but it cemented in me what the right to privacy is all about.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by lee anoma
If he was such a master forger

I never claimed the certification of live birth was a forgery. In fact you are arguing against a lot of points I never made, as I think Obama was born in Hawaii. Are you reading my posts before replying to them?

Didn't you provide a link to a site claiming Obama's birth certificate was invalid?
I'm assuming that means it is a fake because that State of Hawaii does NOT issue invalid birth certificates.

Obama has released the proper information to establish his birth.

This information has been identified as valid by the State of Hawaii.

The link you provided to a copy of a BC from 1961 is moot considering any new copy won't look like that.

Obamas' copy does not need to look like a copy from 1961 in order to be considered a valid copy.
If he had one that looked like that and lost it, he won't get it back.

Your link to an image of an old BC is meaningless.

- Lee

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I don't think anybody is claiming it is a forgery. We are only claiming that it is simple to get without actually being born in the state. I could take a statement from a midwife that says my child was born at my house, and I could get a "certification" of birth in Hawaii. It would be sufficient for 95% of the things I would ever need it for, and it would not prove anything.

It isn't necessarily a forgery, it just isn't sufficient as evidence in a vacuum. It requires corroborating evidence to back it up, and that corroboration has only come from a couple of Hawaiian officials lips. Why hasn't it come from the State Department or Administration's official channels?

This has all been gone over already in this very thread. What you just claimed is not true at all. The myth is created from the fact that you could get a certification from Hawaii stating where you were born. If you can not prove that birth was in Hawaii, you can not get one stating you were born in Hawaii, as Obama's does indeed say. You could not just send a midwife to get a birth certificate or "certification" that said that birth took place in Hawaii without being able to prove it. This has all been stated already. These threads seem to be nothing but mindless circles of people making claims with no proof, people debunk those claims, then we start over making the same claims again with no proof.