The Riddle of the Hum Solved? Magnetic fields induce auditory hallucinations.

reply to post by Phage


If that's so then TJ Moir has accomplished the miracle of recording tinnitus:
Auckland Hum Recording

It would also be quite a miracle if thick steel could attenuate tinnitus.

From the wikipedia page:

People who both suffer from tinnitus and hear the Hum describe them as qualitatively different, and many hum sufferers can find locations where they do not hear the hum at all. An investigation by a team of scientists in Taos dismissed the possibility that the Hum was tinnitus as highly unlikely.

reply to post by monetaryprotest

Again...
The blogger is ascribing "the hum" to a single source, magnetic fields. He also provides a perfect description of tinnitus. He provides no evidence.

I did not say that "the hum" is attributable solely to tinnitus (though in some cases it undoubtedly is).

It would be a miracle if "thick steel" (1/8") attenuated a magnetic field.
From the source you provided in the OP:

Will a magnetic shield block the field's effects?

There is no known material that blocks magnetic fields without itself being attracted to the magnetic force. Magnetic fields can only be redirected, not created or removed. To do this, high-permeability shielding alloys are used.

www.magnetic-shield.com...
Steel does not do a good job of it, it has low magnetic permeability.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by Phage]

I don't know how true this theory may be but I posted about the hum on here a while back as I can often hear it. I mainly hear it when I'm in bed, my bed is made out of tubular steel, I don't know if that would affect it if this theory is true.

I recently moved house and prior to the move was relieved to be leaving the hum behind. However, almost immediately after moving into my new house, the hum was back! I decided one night to try and trace the source as it was driving me mad. The sound was imperceptible in some places and often tilting my head a few degrees brought the sound back. I finally got to the gas meter on the ground floor where I could hear a hum.

Are there any Gas engineers here that could confirm this as a possible source? I can't confirm that the hum coming from the gas mains was the same hum heard in my bed.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by monetaryprotest

 

Again...
The blogger is ascribing "the hum" to a single source, magnetic fields. He also provides a perfect description of tinnitus. He provides no evidence.

I did not say that "the hum" is attributable solely to tinnitus (though in some cases it undoubtedly is).

It would be a miracle if "thick steel" (1/8") attenuated a magnetic field.


[edit on 8/20/2010 by Phage]

Can you explain yourself more clearly? The blogger seems quite clearly to be talking about the Hum as it is described on the wikipedia page and for which the hypothesis of tinnitus was dismissed by the team of scientists in Taos. Are you claiming that he is not talking about this? Perhaps some of the people who report hearing the hum actually have tinnitus and are mistaking it for the hum, but the blogger obviously intends to refer to the other cases, where tinnitus and other easy explanations can be ruled out.

Can you explain what you mean by "no evidence"? If the reports that steel attenuates the hum are true, then that seems to me to be powerful evidence. If there are hum sufferers here on ATS who can confirm this, that would be very persuasive evidence. Are you presenting something that you consider "evidence"?

Why would it be a miracle if 1/8" steel attenuated a magnetic field? Steel is very frequently used as a magnetic shield.

Here are some resources indicating that steel and steel sheeting, even steel as thin as in a normal steel can, does attenuate magnetic fields:
1
2
3

From link number 3:

Depending upon the degree to which the magnetic field must be attenuated, a steel shield could be just a few millimeters thick or up to several inches.

1/8" is over 3mm, which qualifies as "just a few millimeters", so unless these reports are lying, it is quite clearly a fact that 1/8" steel does work as a magnetic shield.

No?

reply to post by monetaryprotest

Yes, steel can be used effectively to contain a magnetic field. Not so much to shield from an external field. Two different situations. Two different requirements.

From the first article you linked:

This causes the field to travel within the walls of the box and not penetrate the inside of it. This is what is done with sensitive electronic equipment that might be affected by stray magnetic fields. They place a shield like a box or a can around the area. A good material to use is called mu-metal.

Mu-metal has high magnetic permeability (making it effective at redirecting a magnetic field), steel does not. This is also talking about shielding from high flux density fields, fields that would be easily detectable if they were the source of "the hum".

From the second article:

In this study, wrapping conductors with thin magnetic materials is proposed as a magnetic shielding method.

This is talking about containing a magnetic field, not shielding against an external field.

From the third article:

So, should the 5 gauss line extend into areas where unscreened people might be, a facility is obliged to either restrict the area or provide passive steel plate shielding to contain the magnetic field.

Again, containing a field, surrounding the source of the field, not shielding from an outside field.

Evidence would be a direct link between a measured magnetic field and the perception of the hum.


[edit on 8/20/2010 by Phage]

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by monetaryprotest

 

Yes, steel can be used effectively to contain a magnetic field. Not so much to shield from an external field. Two different situations. Two different requirements.

Can you explain how you came up with this theory, and why you think it's true?

From the first article you linked:

This causes the field to travel within the walls of the box and not penetrate the inside of it. This is what is done with sensitive electronic equipment that might be affected by stray magnetic fields. They place a shield like a box or a can around the area. A good material to use is called mu-metal.

Mu-metal has high magnetic permeability (making it effective at redirecting a magnetic field), steel does not. This is also talking about shielding from high flux density fields, fields that would be easily detectable if they were the source of "the hum".

You omitted the bit just before that quotation:

Suppose you don't want any field within a region of space, how can you do that? The diagram on the left shows a blue area that is immersed within a magnetic field. Can we eliminate the field around the blue area? The diagram on the right shows an iron box around that region. This causes the field to travel within the walls of the box and not penetrate the inside of it. ...

Iron is not exactly steel, but the most common type of steel, mild steel, has a comparable relative permeability (2,000) to iron (5,000).
Source

Yes, obviously Mu-Metal is better. It would be nice to get a hum sufferer to try out some Mu-Metal to see if it helps, but at the moment we only have reports of steel attenuating the hum.

Evidence would be a direct link between a measured magnetic field and the perception of the hum.

What is the more general definition of evidence from which you draw this criterion?

[edit on 20-8-2010 by monetaryprotest]

reply to post by Phage


What I have isn't tinnitus. Tinnitus has neither locality nor direction. One cannot walk away from tinnitus and then walk back to tinnitus. You cannot turn your head and have tinnitus get louder or softer.

I do have an unusual hearing range.

The range I hear isn't the same as what people with tinnitus "hear."

I am sure that some people who hear this do have this condition. Damage to the structures in the ear isn't exactly unheard of. Yes, I have had my hearing checked. Yes, I've been to see an audiologist. I have no inner ear damage, and my hearing really is unusual.

I have neither the time nor the interest in tracking down what it is, because I already have a decent idea of what is happening and there are a few research papers out about it.

The essential idea is that some when some waves pass through and interact with the brain, the parts that are used to interpret waves into data for you - the auditory structures - interpret the waves as sound.

Seems mighty reasonable to me.

Being dismissive becomes very easy in this sort of environment. It is no more logical to be dismissive without reason than it is to accept everything with great enthusiasm.

reply to post by monetaryprotest

First, I did overstate the inability for steel to attenuate a magnetic field. Under certain conditions a properly constructed shield of steel is able to do so to a certain degree. Also, my thoughts on external versus internal shielding were wrong.

But...
Your source seems to provide maximum relative permeability values. They are dependent upon the flux density of the magnetic field, the lower the flux density the lower the permeability. I don't know what value was used in your source but here it shows relative permeability for steel at 100 at .002 T, a significant reduction.
en.wikipedia.org...

As I said, even steel shielding is slightly effective in a high density field.

Mild steel can shield magnetic fields and is appropriate for applications requiring a small attenuation of a high flux density field.

www.mushield.com... Since the "Bristol Hum" (the one specifically referred to in regard to steel causing attenuation) covers a wide area the flux density must be very low (unless it is being caused by a powerful magnetic field). Therefore the ability for steel to attenuate the field would be slight.

Furthermore, the linked page says:

Steel enclosures (such as cars, vehicles, some buildings) slightly attenuate the perceived hum, but only if greater than 1/8" wall thickness.

www.mendhak.com...
However this page (further linked) says only this:

Steel enclosures slightly attenuate the perceived hum, but only if greater
than 1/8" wall thickness.

amasci.com...
Unless the enclosure consists of a full enclosure of sheet metal with no breaks any shielding effect would be further reduced. Magnetic shielding is not the same as electrical shielding.

But given that some magnetic attenuation is possible (however slight), how was the attenuation of the hum quantified? Subjectively? That's a bit problematic. It allows for psychological and physiological factors to enter the picture. The attenuation was reported for Bristol, was it reported elsewhere?

If magnetic fields were able to induce auditory sensations:
1) The field should be measurable. (Any attenuation of the field inside an enclosure would also be measurable.)
2) If the field is measurable it would be reproducible and the sensation could be reproduced away from the "hum zone".

I see the claim as anecdotal, not evidence.

onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

The human auditory response to pulses of radiofrequency (RF) energy, commonly called RF hearing, is a well established phenomenon. RF induced sounds can be characterized as low intensity sounds because, in general, a quiet environment is required for the auditory response. The sound is similar to other common sounds such as a click, buzz, hiss, knock, or chirp.

Just thought people here might find this interesting.

This is a Wiki that's interesting.

en.wikipedia.org...

and another

ieeexplore.ieee.org...

ieeexplore.ieee.org...

and just for a long read with some cross over information:

www.set.rmit.edu.au...

[edit on 2010/8/23 by Aeons]

i believe this is possible and the implications could be far more important. read or listen to terence mckennas true halucinations.

Originally posted by Phage
Yes, it's called tinnitus and it not caused by magnetic fields.

tinnitus? Hummmmmm you sure? So you think a whole town might catch that?

'Hum' keeps Suffolk town awake

People in a Suffolk town have noticed a strange humming sound overnight for the past seven weeks. The BBC's Emma North went to investigate the "Sudbury hum".

news.bbc.co.uk...

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by Phage

 

What I have isn't tinnitus. Tinnitus has neither locality nor direction. One cannot walk away from tinnitus and then walk back to tinnitus. You cannot turn your head and have tinnitus get louder or softer.

Actually you can. There are interactions between the structures in the jaw/neck and the neuronal feedback systems involved. I have slight tinnitus. My neurootologist described various "exercises" (e.g. throwing forward or side to side my jaw)---and I noticed frequency & amplitude shifts when I did so, as he expected.

The range I hear isn't the same as what people with tinnitus "hear."

I am sure that some people who hear this do have this condition. Damage to the structures in the ear isn't exactly unheard of. Yes, I have had my hearing checked. Yes, I've been to see an audiologist. I have no inner ear damage, and my hearing really is unusual.

I have no knowledge of your condition of course, just pointing out some known facts about tinnitus.