A common 9/11 misconception

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
The only option I see for your conspiracy movement to go anywhere is for you to pull down the gov't and install a leader of your choosing at the barrel of a gun. Is this really what you support?

Emphatically no. History tells us that following that impulse leads to carnage, a dark age including the possibility of the rise of a dictator worse than the one you got rid of, and finally the slow reinvention of the wheel.

Americans must retake their government. They must discover how the great system they inheirited from the founders of the republic has been subverted and undermined by the oligarchs.

They must stamp out the practices that short circuit and undermine the process of government, the three part system of checks and balances instituted by the 18th century visionaries who made the United States of America, the greatest country that ever existed on this planet.

I am not American. I am a foreigner. But I am an ardent champion of the American ideal. I loathe its corruption from within and I rush to its aid.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
Americans must retake their government. They must discover how the great system they inheirited from the founders of the republic has been subverted and undermined by the oligarchs.

They must stamp out the practices that short circuit and undermine the process of government, the three part system of checks and balances instituted by the 18th century visionaries who made the United States of America, the greatest country that ever existed on this planet.

...but according to you, the ruling oligarchy has kept everyone blind to what's going on due to the absolute control of all information, and are selecting leaders for us who are either intentional pawns, or are as blind to what's going on as we are. How do we "stamp out the practices that short curcuit and undermine the process of gov't" when again, according to you, we're all blind sheep who don't believe there's a problem, or willing dupes who are part of the problem? You need to do something to break this cycle of control and simply voting for the oligarchy shills won't get you anywhere, so what else would it be?

Then of course there's the REAL question- if you're genuinely taking these conspiracy claims seriously, then why are you here posting all this and openly inviting a visit from a gov't spook and his silenced pistol?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
How do we "stamp out the practices that short curcuit and undermine the process of gov't"

I think that one must expose practices in certain key areas first of all. One practice is the extensive use of presidential signing statements to circumvent the intentions of legislation passed by congress. This situation needs to be confronted and settled once and for all. A suggestion. Limit the number of signing statements that may be issued by a president during an administration. Personally, I would limit that number to ONE.

In that way a president would be forced to hold such an extraordinary power to circumvent checks and balances in reserve for an overwhelming issue of dire necessity that required immediate action. All other issues can be dealt with in the normal legislative and judicial ways.

Legislators who sell their votes should go to jail.

Lobbyists should be closely monitored and details of all representations made by them should be available to the public.

The Federal Reserve Board should be nationalized. The issuance of a nation's currency shouldn't be licenced out as if it were a Coney Island hot dog stand.

Then of course there's the REAL question- if you're genuinely taking these conspiracy claims seriously, then why are you here posting all this and openly inviting a visit from a gov't spook and his silenced pistol?

Being on ATS is like babbling to yourself in an empty room. Nobody cares.

Edit: I should add, relative to legislators selling their votes. Legislators who vote for legislation without reading it!!!!, as happened in the case of the Patriot Act, should be horse whipped in front of the Capitol and frog marched straight to jail.

The American people didn't elect their representatives to be bobble-head dolls.


[edit on 16-8-2010 by ipsedixit]

Originally posted by ipsedixit
I think that one must expose practices in certain key areas first of all. One practice is the extensive use of presidential signing statements to circumvent the intentions of legislation passed by congress. This situation needs to be confronted and settled once and for all. A suggestion. Limit the number of signing statements that may be issued by a president during an administration. Personally, I would limit that number to ONE.

But that contradicts your prior post. Obama came along and said he was going to stop all the unpopular things Bush was doing (I.e. the war in Iraq, the prison in Guantanamo, etc) but once elected he turned out to be(according to you) the exact same fascist we had before but just wearing a different suit. The "exposing the practices" was therefore just a scheme to give the illusion he represented legitimate change, so in the end, the voting process you're fostering made no tangible difference.

In that way a president would be forced to hold such an extraordinary power to circumvent checks and balances in reserve for an overwhelming issue of dire necessity that required immediate action. All other issues can be dealt with in the normal legislative and judicial ways.

So how is this different from Congress voting to give Pres. Bush war powers after the 9/11 attack?

Being on ATS is like babbling to yourself in an empty room. Nobody cares.

There's no such thing as a fascist state that doesn't care. When the White Rose society in Germany passed pamphlets around at school condemning Hitler, the Gestapo tracked them down and beheaded them...and they were just a handful of nobody college kids. This is what they were beheaded for:

"Goethe speaks of the Germans as a tragic people, like the Jews and the Greeks, but today it would appear rather that they are a spineless, will-less herd of hangers-on, who now - the marrow sucked out of their bones, robbed of their center of stability - are waiting to be hounded to their destruction. So it seems - but it is not so. Rather, by means of a gradual, treacherous, systematic abuse, the system has put every man into a spiritual prison. Only now, finding himself lying in fetters, has he become aware of his fate. "

To me, this is just a more well educated way of saying what you're saying. You don't need to be looking underneath stones and rooting through garbage cans searchign for signs of the secret fascist state. Fascist states are always blatant, and will always come looking for you.

I don't know if you're being sincere or tongue in cheek about your signature but I thought I would point out something. Your signature says:

"Nine-eleven was NOT an inside job, it was an Osama Bin Laden job with 19 people from Saudi Arabia, they murdered 3000 Americans and others foreigners including Muslims and we look like idiots, to deny that the people who murdered our fellow citizens did it, when they are continuing to murder other people around the world." - Pres. William Jefferson Clinton


" we look like idiots, to deny that they people who murdered our fellow ciitzens did it, when they are continuing to murder, etc"

Surely, the 19 hijackers all died in the attacks? According to Clinton they didn't. "They are CONTINUING to murder other people".

Either the 19 supposed hijackers didn't die in the attacks or somebody else was responsible for them. Clinton wouldn't lie to us, would he?

reply to post by Asktheanimals


You don't think they might have been representative of some larger force, some wider movement?

That seems pretty obvious to me. Even if jihadist Islam has been inflated by Bush and co in order to launch some kind of land grab, it still exists.

There's no such thing as a fascist state that doesn't care. When the White Rose society in Germany passed pamphlets around at school condemning Hitler, the Gestapo tracked them down and beheaded them...and they were just a handful of nobody college kids.

The Nazis were fundamentally a gang of thugs putting on airs.

"Smiley Face" fascism is different. Smiley Face fascists are still pretending they occupy the moral high ground; witness that absurd signature quote of yours from former President Clinton.

Currently we are in the "phoney war" stage of the struggle for America. Everyone is still holding their cards pretty close to their vests. Alex Jones and some others are the canaries in the coalmine for the rest of us.

But even if things were much much riskier, don't you think it would be better to take the risk than to go along with the agenda of tyrants?

Great post OP.


And I see people are already bringing up history, WW2 and all of that.

How typical is it of mankind to ignore history and repeat the same mistakes over and over?


"Oh, that would never happen here!!"

And then exactly because of this "blind eye" the public gladly turns to their leaders, the worst corruption is given the perfect environment to thrive.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I don't know if you're being sincere or tongue in cheek about your signature but I thought I would point out something. Your signature says:

"Nine-eleven was NOT an inside job, it was an Osama Bin Laden job with 19 people from Saudi Arabia, they murdered 3000 Americans and others foreigners including Muslims and we look like idiots, to deny that the people who murdered our fellow citizens did it, when they are continuing to murder other people around the world." - Pres. William Jefferson Clinton


" we look like idiots, to deny that they people who murdered our fellow ciitzens did it, when they are continuing to murder, etc"

Surely, the 19 hijackers all died in the attacks? According to Clinton they didn't. "They are CONTINUING to murder other people".

Either the 19 supposed hijackers didn't die in the attacks or somebody else was responsible for them. Clinton wouldn't lie to us, would he?

"we look like idiots to deny that the people who murdered our fellow citizens did it, when they are continuing to murder other people around the world."

sums up the debunkers perfectly. Thanks, Billy C.

Here is another great quote from a White Rose Society pamphlet:

en.wikipedia.org...

...why do you allow these men who are in power to rob you step by step, openly and in secret, of one domain of your rights after another, until one day nothing, nothing at all will be left but a mechanised state system presided over by criminals and drunks?

Thanks to GoodOlDave for drawing them to my attention. I hadn't heard of this group before. They are an outstanding example of fearless, perhaps foolish youth, whose deeds outlive them and still have power to move us to action.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by PersonalChoice
(and by normal people, I mean people who have never in their lives broken a law, lied about anything, committed so called immoral acts, and always held a job)

I agree with everything you said, except this one part.

1) I have drove my car around the USA and have been all over, and everyone speeds - thus breaking the law.

2) They are all also liars. I have never met a person that didn't lie. Including myself.

But I am not lying right now. Or am I?

I see a lot of people have jumped on this, I actually struggled with the appropriate word to convey to all of you a general description of the type of people I am referring to. Which was why I put it quotations. I hope everyone got the point though, it's just a generalization of people we all know who do not cuss,smoke,drink,do drugs, may be very religious, (may earn some traffic infractions) but would never think of committing a felony or even a misdemeanor for that matter. I have a few Aunts like this.

reply to post by PersonalChoice


I don't agree at all that there is a large number of what you describe as " normal people " who live in a Mary Poppins/ Walt Disney world and consequently have difficulty seeing evil in others.

If that were the case then trial by jury would be largely a waste of time. Fact is that it is not a waste of time. When " normal people" are presented with real evidence they will convict.

I can understand what the OP means by "normal" people. Of course few people go their entire life without the occasional speeding ticket etc but they generally consider themselves to be law abiding. They have been brought up to believe that the moral viewpoint of politicians and lawmakers somehow takes precedence over their own morals. I guess some people just don't like to think for themselves that much. It's easier to just follow the leader and obey. It's also incredibly hard for most people to change their beliefs, especially when it forces them to change their entire outlook on life and truth. What else is corrupt? What else is/has the government lying/lied about? Should I trust them to tell me what medicine is best to take (if anyone has cancer please do your own research)? Eventually you start to see that the two things that make this world go around are money and power, the two are closely related.

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by PersonalChoice

 

I don't agree at all that there is a large number of what you describe as " normal people " who live in a Mary Poppins/ Walt Disney world and consequently have difficulty seeing evil in others.

If that were the case then trial by jury would be largely a waste of time. Fact is that it is not a waste of time. When " normal people" are presented with real evidence they will convict.

The "normal" people don't have difficulty seeing evil in others. It is clear cut like night and day. You are either a goodie or a baddie. A criminal or a law abiding citizen. Since the law and government is so just and moral, anyone who breaks it must therefore be immoral and evil. If the government says it was evil terrorists who hate our freedoms that were responsible for 9/11 then that must be true. No need to take any evidence that suggests otherwise seriously.

Trail by jury "works" because the jury see that the highly moral police (who have taken it upon themselves to make sure every citizen lives up to the government's morals) think that the accused is guilty of breaching the government's moral code. Therefore the jury (who have the utmost respect for the police and their opinion) will have no trouble in perceiving the evidence that the accused broke the highly respected government moral code (a big no no). An example of this would be someone who made the choice to put non-government approved medicine into their body because they thought it would be more beneficial with fewer harmful side effects. Even if I was not guilty of breaking any laws, a jury made up of the general public deciding my fate would scare me to death. Unfortunately it is probably the fairest trial system.











[edit on 17-8-2010 by Azp420]

Originally posted by Azp420


The "normal" people don't have difficulty seeing evil in others. It is clear cut like night and day. You are either a goodie or a baddie. A criminal or a law abiding citizen. Since the law and government is so just and moral, anyone who breaks it must therefore be immoral and evil. If the government says it was evil terrorists who hate our freedoms that were responsible for 9/11 then that must be true. No need to take any evidence that suggests otherwise seriously.

Trail by jury "works" because the jury see that the highly moral police (who have taken it upon themselves to make sure every citizen lives up to the government's morals) think that the accused is guilty of breaching the government's moral code. Therefore the jury (who have the utmost respect for the police and their opinion) will have no trouble in perceiving the evidence that the accused broke the highly respected government moral code (a big no no). An example of this would be someone who made the choice to put non-government approved medicine into their body because they thought it would be more beneficial with fewer harmful side effects. Even if I was not guilty of breaking any laws, a jury made up of the general public deciding my fate would scare me to death. Unfortunately it is probably the fairest trial system.











[edit on 17-8-2010 by Azp420]

Much Thanks AZP420, you literally took the words out of my mouth(in your reply to Alfies comment).

Alfie, I totally disagree with your statement, you are trying to simplify a very complex generalization to prove a ridiculous point. Of course the so called normal people that we are referring to can go to a Jury trial and convict, they have no problem seeing evil in people they have already deemed evil. They are usually so completely unaware that the mere fact that a person has been charged and put in front of them must mean they are evil. One only has to look as far as the countless people in jail who are completely innocent of the crime, yet were convicted by a jury of their peers.


In fact, the(very public) jury trial for 9/11 was conducted through the media, the 9/11 Commission were the jurors that convicted them with this elaborate explanation that tied up any loose ends. I believe the Nazi's were experts at exploiting these techniques. Let's take a moment to look at some of the things they said about controlling the public opinion...

Hitler,

All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.

Goebbels,

During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information.

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

Lastly Another Hitler quote that adds to my point of this thread,

The size of the lie is a definite factor in causing it to be believed, for the vast masses of a nation are in the depths of their hearts more easily deceived than they are consciously and intentionally bad. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them a more easy prey to a big lie than a small one, for they themselves often tell little lies, but would be ashamed to tell big lies.

These and more can be found here quotes.liberty-tree.ca...

I think my point is clear, the possibility that we were told a elaborate lie is a very real possibility, in spite of what the righteous Debunkers want us to believe.