duality creates logic and intelligence

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by Xtinguish

 

What I am trying to point to is that in fact neither north or south really exist other than as relativistic contrivances of the mind ... they are constructs, they do not actually exist.

Duality is simply the result of the mind trying to rationalize existence ... however it is the wrong tool to interpret such knowledge and/or awareness. Therefore it deals with verbal approximations, relative dualities, substitutes information for knowledge, etc ...

This is obviously neither a good or a bad thing per se, for that in itself is a dual abstraction ... it is simply missing the mark.

Using the mind as a vehicle to knowledge is much like letting the engine drive the car.

Ah, yes. Point understood now. Thank you.

reply to post by saabacura

There has been no cultures that lived in accordance to non dualism...

There are monasteries high in the mountains of China that have practiced 1000 year old ritual worship to achieve non dualistic consciousness.

When the first airplanes flew over these monasteries what must the priests have thought? The planes were immediately recognized as part of the priests reality but they would have no understanding of them. Some remote tribes in Africa with no contact to the outside world might not even realize an airplane was a man made vehicle.

I'm not sure what a zen master would say about western religion, they don't always strive for political correctness.

They might convince you that in a past life you personally helped nail Jesus to the cross and thus were now sentenced to a grave with Satan. Or if you weren't Christian maybe they would accuse you of being an Al Queida terrorist guilty of the heinous crime of killing 100,000 people.

reply to post by saabacura

duality always creates the scenario of choosing between yes or no.

Agreed.
Creation is a result of the natural polarity within concept of Existence and Non-Existence - or Something vs. Nothing.

In Nothingness we find Truth, Clarity, Purity.

When we add Something to the Nothing we create the foundation of choice - Yes/No, Do/Don't, Right/Wrong - and by adding these 'Somethings' we also create the Non-Truths that we call Reality.

0 = TRUE
1 = FALSE

reply to post by saabacura

But the thing is... that "this" law is real.... We do live in dualistic world.. we are limited and constraint to what we have... Our mind may be greater...but our physical body still remains ineffably here. Perhaps this is the paradox???

It "seems" real to you because the mind that claim is you, thinks/believes (realm of imagination) that there is a you, and a me, and an us and that were all in duality.

It is a belief that you are limited and that you are a body.

Study Advaita.

"The thought of a rock, is not the actual rock. So who you think you are, is not that actual you"

Nonduality can only be Experienced ......although when it is experienced ....there is no you to experience .....there is just the experience. It is the Absolute truth ...the underlying reality of all things.

I thought this thread would have died on its own.

Can there be non-duality if duality exists?

Look at the sentence again, re-read it, and you will realize that non-duality CANNOT therefore exists.

What we define as north, south, east, wests, black and white are merely constructs as some as pointed out, but we humans need to communicate with each other.

If the north is NOT labelled as North, as the magnet will show, it will then be called South, west, or whatever that comes to mind and accepted by a significant propotion of humanity.

We can claim a thousand and one things about illusion/delusions, but the FACT remains, the magnet will still point at one direction, a reality we cannot deny.

Therefore, non duality is a pipe dream, an illusion, a negative, to be tossed away.

=======

When you use logic to debate an issue, you are thereby arguing on the basis of known or ACCEPTED facts by the majority, which could be wrong or right. But it in the end, it is still theoratical beliefs that is based on sound evidences of our 5 senses and calcultaions which MAY turn out the theory as true.

But to deign such theories as false would be to assign them to the realm of delusions. Logic cannot exist with delusions. While it may not be 100% true, it still fall withins an acceptable range NOT to be dismiss offhand.

Thus when logic and reason is critically used, chances are it is NOT illusions or delusions as some believe.



[edit on 17-8-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Therefore, non duality is a pipe dream, an illusion, a negative, to be tossed away.

I'll give you a million dollars if you can prove nonduality to be a pipe dream, a negative, and to be tossed away.

I remember a little over a year ago wrestling with the following phrase in a book on nonduality:

"Just like a thought of a rock, is not an actual rock, so who you think you are, is not who you actually are."

It really struck a chord with me. So I sat there trying to find out who I am thats not a thought, and every time a thought popped up as an answer ....it was tossed away as being a thought.

Then I realized ...that the aspect of I or me that was trying to find out who I am that is not a thought ...drum roll please ....is also a thought.

In that instance everything went tumbling away, the illusion of I, of me ...the whole ego construct collapsed and what was left behind was this objective Oneness ......my body was no longer mine, as there was no I and it was no different than the chair, the room .....inside and outside were the same....

This Objective Absolute state seemed to be Intelligent, and Loving, infinite timeless. And GUESS WHAT???? There are others who have discovered this state.

This state was before the mind thinks, before consciousness arises, before awareness ...it is the source of all ...always there and the absolute truth. Whereas everything else is relative.

The highest branches of Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and even Christianity revolve around nonduality .....and then you just simply come in here and say toss it away? Come on now!!!!!

When you use logic to debate an issue, you are thereby arguing on the basis of known or ACCEPTED facts by the majority

You can use Logic itself to conclude that Logic is limited. There are famous greek philosophers that realized that you can use Logic to conclude that there is only Nonduality.

"accepted" and "facts" and "majority" is all relative and means nothing in the face of existence itself, beingness, amness, Isness.

But it in the end, it is still theoratical beliefs that is based on sound evidences of our 5 senses and calcultaions which MAY turn out the theory as true.

Dude, sense are limited. Ears only go from 20hz-20,000khz, eyes only see certain color spectrums, smell compared to bloodhounds make us look like amatuers, and I can go on and on about the limits of human senses.

Oh ..and guess what .....there is an awareness within that is aware of eyes seeing, ears hearing, mind thinking, etc. This awareness just Is ....without qualities except observing.

Logic cannot exist with delusions.

After experiencing Nonduality ...to me Logic itself is a limited and childlike delusion. To someone within the experience of Nonduality ......all of us as collective with our so called knowledge, logic, and reason are like a bunch of stupid ants going about our interests.

Thus when logic and reason is critically used, chances are it is NOT illusions or delusions as some believe.

Some of the greatest minds in the world concluded that by using Logic and Reason we come to Nonduality as the Absolute truth ....everything else is relative.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I thought this thread would have died on its own.

Can there be non-duality if duality exists?

Look at the sentence again, re-read it, and you will realize that non-duality CANNOT therefore exists.

What we define as north, south, east, wests, black and white are merely constructs as some as pointed out, but we humans need to communicate with each other.

If the north is NOT labelled as North, as the magnet will show, it will then be called South, west, or whatever that comes to mind and accepted by a significant propotion of humanity.

We can claim a thousand and one things about illusion/delusions, but the FACT remains, the magnet will still point at one direction, a reality we cannot deny.

Therefore, non duality is a pipe dream, an illusion, a negative, to be tossed away.

=======

When you use logic to debate an issue, you are thereby arguing on the basis of known or ACCEPTED facts by the majority, which could be wrong or right. But it in the end, it is still theoratical beliefs that is based on sound evidences of our 5 senses and calcultaions which MAY turn out the theory as true.

But to deign such theories as false would be to assign them to the realm of delusions. Logic cannot exist with delusions. While it may not be 100% true, it still fall withins an acceptable range NOT to be dismiss offhand.

Thus when logic and reason is critically used, chances are it is NOT illusions or delusions as some believe.



[edit on 17-8-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

A world where duality no longer exist is a world where Something doesn't exist and Nothing doesn't exist. It is a world where we may grasp of its existence but never fully experience.

So the above poster who said non dual world is a ill-guided..negative... well such things doesn't even exist in that part of the state.

So the fact that you are "labeling" something that cannot even be labeled, shows you don't fully grasp it. That is my opinion.

[edit on 18-8-2010 by saabacura]

In fact, in a non-dual world, there would be no such thing as experiencing. Some posters said that they have experienced a non dualistic world.... I say, it is impossible.

Like I say from first post, dualistic world give us the opportunity to experience the option of choosing one side or the other (yes/no)

In non-dualistic world, you don't NEED TO EXPERIENCE ANYTHING AS THERE IS NO CHOICE. THUS NON DUALISTIC.

[edit on 18-8-2010 by saabacura]

In Non-Dual world.... through my dualistic understanding...

No choice

No experience

No intelligence

about 99% these three things don't exist in that world




[edit on 18-8-2010 by saabacura]

reply to post by saabacura

In fact, in a non-dual world, there would be no such thing as experiencing. Some posters said that they have experienced a non dualistic world.... I say, it is impossible.

The experience of nonduality was definitely there .... except in that experience ...there was no I to experience it. It was just Nonduality experiencing itself and I was non-existent in that. However, "that" definitely was.

It is this I that writes this after the fact of "that" even though "that" is even right now, the source of everything and the absolute truth.

Like I say from first post, dualistic world give us the opportunity to experience the option of choosing one side or the other (yes/no)

Yes/no doesn't exist ...they are labels created by thought ..they are illusion and they are relative.

In non-dualistic world, you don't NEED TO EXPERIENCE ANYTHING AS THERE IS NO CHOICE. THUS NON DUALISTIC.

Exactly ...everything is as it is. You too can experience the state of No "you" where nonduality is real. Just use negation and see what happens:

In Non-Dual world.... through my dualistic understanding... No choice No experience No intelligence about 99% these three things don't exist in that world

If you spend a few years studying Nonduality ...you will see that Nonduality is equated with the Tao, the source of all things, with God of most religions.

When One is operating in nonduality ...then no choice needs to be made ...everything just is and flows and there is no chooser of anything. Instead of no experience it is actually all experience and at the same time unfiltered with no 'you' to experience it.

Intelligence is tossed away as it operates from duality ...it is limited and tiny compared to nonduality being all things and all intelligence.

Since Domincus and Seabacra insisted on understanding non-duality, I will just share my insignificant insight further, compelled.

I had thought to keep silent on the subject of non-duality, as humanity is already fully burdened with too much woes to comprehend a ancient secret esoteric teachings that is not relevant to our dualistic world.

I figured perhaps the time has come to summarize ancient wisdom, modern science as 2012 draws closer, a time of graduation for humanity.

If we failed to make the changes, many of us will only mercifully transcend to the next. With such revelation, it will only better prepare all, that there is no need to fear and should instead treasure whatever we have now.

If we managed to make the changes, then such knowledge will only help us evolve to a higher plane...

I will attempt to put it as simply as possible so that more may understand, of ancient mystlc teachings, modern science to back up and with a dose of logic

Lao Tzi was an ancient chinese mystic responsible for the teachings of Tao. In his younger days in turbulent China then, he gathered enough experiences to last a lifetime many did not have the opportunity to do so.

As he grew old and feeble, he withdrew into hermitage into the fabled mystic mountains of China, and attempted to gain comprehension on life. Through divine mercy, he was shown what was to come when he passes on in life.

He continued to lived on and pass such messages to his well wishes who seeked his wisdom, which unfortunately was passed on to successive generations misunderstood. That message of Tao was meant for the next life, and not the current life.

As Seabraca had so succiently put it, it is a predestined life governed by fate. There is nothing that you can do to alter it, so you must live it 'as it is' and not to fight it. It was a message not meant for this world, but the next when we give up or lose this gift of life, love and free will.

As science had proven, Matter does not die, but continues to interact with other elements and evolve. Our human bodies are but biological matter, but chemical elements are produced when we eat, work and think. Such matter created and generated does not die and is part of our conciousness, or known as our soul, learning and adapting to our environments.

When we die, our consciousness built up over the years do not die with the body shell, but leaves it and rejoins the cosmos, to either bond with other elements to become trees, water, life forms, etc, even asteroid or planetary systems, or become atmospheric protective shields to protect planets or elements within a hot burning sun.

Such matter are Non-dualistic in NATURE. It sees, experience, knows nothing, but AS nothing, sees, experience and 'knows' everything, but comprehends nothing or 'teach' anyone anything by itself.

It remains in such a state under the blue print engineered by our Creator. I know not reincarnation, but if it is a fact, it will and can only be a choice by our Creator to determine our consciousness with another chance for the gift of life, sent when a biological entity DNA grows the mind prior to birth.

Our Creator engineered the order of Chaos, and could have created biological robots to maintain the system, but He is a Being possess of love, and gave it to us along with free will so that we thinking and rational beings may fill the stars with our progenies with warmth and love, dominant of other species. In His likeness, were we created.

Today we understand how cloning works. While we may be able to clone another being, we cannot create that gift of life and free will within that shell.Such observations can be seen, as the clone is not a DIRECT copy of its master copy in its adaptation in life, and proves Eugenics wrong. Such gift of life, love and free will can only come from our Creator.

And we are not the only 'human beings' in the Universe.

Buddha, who came very much later than Lao Tzi, too was taught such divine knowledge when he was at the height of his suffering, but with a more altrusic message to mankind on how this life would be lived with the gift of free will.

Thus Tao and Buddhism does share very much similiar insights in its basic form, but the message of non-duality and Nirvana was meant for the next, and not for this dualistic world based upon love and free will.

May you consider my post. Thanks for reading.

Melody for you to contemplate in:-


[edit on 18-8-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

Well put,
I agree with most of it except for the part that we are not meant to experience nondaulity here in this reality.

I don't necessarily agree with that. For example in my own life and path, after experiencing what seems now in retrospect to be mini-enlightenments', or rest stops along the way, it created this unquenchable thirst to want to know and experience the absolute truth no matter the cost.

I remember for years with my face to the floor praying that I want to experience this Absolute truth even if it costs me my own life ....surprisingly it did cost me that. I came to find out that my identity is a complete sham made up by parents, society, peers, culture.

I experienced that 'I', 'me' is just an illusion, a thought, and imagination. What was left over was nondaulity ..there was no me or I or you guys there. It was just that and it cost me myself to see that.

So for a very select few ...it is there to be revealed. OF course Jesus taught this also saying "I and the father are One, and I wish they all can be One the way I and the Father are One" (paraphrased)

After 10 years and thousands if not hundreds of thousand of hours of studying all of this ....that was to me the peak of the mountain ....that this is all Illusion ..these identities ...the truth is what underlines all of that ...it is the source of all.

This of course causes me a conundrum because how can I possibly teach or preach the dismantling of a person's identity? No one will have this ....they've killed Christ, Ghandi, Socrates, and many others who teach this and I have been called blasphemer, heretic, a false teacher and so on ....and yet this was all revealed to me through my Love of God of the Absolute truth and wanting to know what it is......

.....it cost me everything to know ......and I can never ever deny Nonduality (which to me is equivalent to Tao, God, Infinity, Absolute Love, Supreme Intelligence, etc) That can never be denied and I would take a bullet before denying those realities.

And that is why I'm here defending that Nonduality is indeed true and the Absolute truth. There are techniques out there on how to be realized in this state ...and the thinking mind is in the way of that ......its a very simple state and yet extremely complex to the mind which cant grasp this.

Duality is a problem indeed, it's like a wave, ~ the upper part of the wave and the down part of the wave, yes and no, bad and good, one red one blue. What is calm waters and what is water with waves, something different I would say. Waves makes reason so I'm assuming it creates reallity. On the other hand calm water is the same everywhere without waves, when waves are reduced spirituality is increased and when waves are increased phisical reallity takes place ?

Perhaps God should experience OUR reality as a human being without knowing that he is THE "GOD".....
Then
I wonder what conclusion God would make of this world....

reply to post by dominicus


I guess you are right... There is no I, there is just us...