If someone alters the past is it possible for us to notice it?

If you want to speak or paradox's bordering on insanity then time travel is a good one. The notion that causality can be circumvented itself is a paradox. And to travel through the past would reverse entropy and defy the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

What is the logical coherence in an effect precluding its cause?

Well first we have to grant time travel that can deal with paradoxes. One possibility is that there are parallel realities representing all possibilities, and that we can be seen as moving ourselves into one possible reality or another, rather than as changing reality.

If that model were correct, you never have to worry about waking up tomorrow and finding out that the yesterday you remember is not what really happened.

This morning, you woke up with whatever your present hairstyle is. In parallel realities, you chose to get it cut, dyed, or otherwise changed yesterday and many other times. But not in the world that you are experiencing and care about- just in some parallel universe you will almost certainly never see.

So if I go back in time to last night and shave your head, the minute I do, I am leaving the reality I come from, where you woke up with all of your hair, and entering a parallel reality... a parallel reality that contains a parallel me, asleep in bed planning his time travel for the next day (today).

So when you wake up and slap me around for shaving your head, and you demand that I help you undo it, we can go over to the home of parallel me and talk him out of shaving your head, but it won't help bald you. It will stop you from getting shaved in yet another reality, but parallel me isn't who did it to you; It was the me from the universe where you still have hair who did it.

So there's one last hope. We use my time machine to go back and stop the right me from shaving your head in that parallel reality. So there are you and me and my time machine protecting another you from me and my time machine... but how can we be sure that we are still in the right reality? Just by having this encounter have we changed enough to merit yet another parallel reality? Probably so, meaning that the damage is done and probably can't be fixed.


However, somewhere in the universe there is a version of you who could be living in a world defined by time travelers' actions, and there is no way to prove that we aren't in one such world right now.

If we are however, there are certain things that could occur which might tip us off that time travel had occurred obviously, but these would be easy to dismiss as errors, forgeries, or oddities for the most part.

If you took something back in time and didn't stop it from being created in that world, or took it back to a time when it already existed, it would exist in duplicate. A unique artifact that is known to have been destroyed could be discovered intact, a person could be recorded being in two places at once, or serial numbers might seem to have been duplicated.

If you took something back in time and stopped it from being created in that world, it would exist without cause. A gene or even a species could appear with no evolutionary history, you could have a mass-produced object which is absolutely one of a kind. Someone could even bring you a history book from a future that should have been but somehow went wrong after the time traveler arrived... and if the changes weren't too dramatic it might even be verifiable- perhaps it would be written by the same author and contain a passage that only the author knows he chose to omit in your world- that would go a long way.

Originally posted by IamBoon


What is the logical coherence in an effect precluding its cause?

But what if it is the cause creating the effect that makes the cause precede the effect?

Meaning that it is actually going into the past during the future.

reply to post by Gentill Abdulla


And it strikes me as backwards logic. Kind of like stating "I am eating a hot dog now that I ate yesterday." and believing it. Makes no sense .

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Gentill Abdulla

 

And it strikes me as backwards logic. Kind of like stating "I am eating a hot dog now that I ate yesterday." and believing it. Makes no sense .

number line

123456789

With time travel the numbers loop backwards while going forwards.


SO you can go back to the numbers 456 while the numbers actually being 1 2 3 4 10 5 11 6 12 7 8 9 13 14 15 16....

meaning you are going back in time during the future.

reply to post by Gentill Abdulla


THere is not time travel. Your post as it stands is always in the now and sequencing numbers does not equate to cause reversal. If I count backwards from 10 am I time traveling? I hope you don't think so! lol

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Gentill Abdulla

 

THere is not time travel. Your post as it stands is always in the now and sequencing numbers does not equate to cause reversal. If I count backwards from 10 am I time traveling? I hope you don't think so! lol

There is a difference from an analogy and actual thing happening.



[edit on 24-7-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
There is a difference from an analogy and actual thing happening.

[edit on 24-7-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

So does that not render your analogy useless?

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by Gentill Abdulla

 

And it strikes me as backwards logic. Kind of like stating "I am eating a hot dog now that I ate yesterday." and believing it. Makes no sense .

number line

123456789

With time travel the numbers loop backwards while going forwards.


SO you can go back to the numbers 456 while the numbers actually being 1 2 3 4 10 5 11 6 12 7 8 9 13 14 15 16....

meaning you are going back in time during the future.

what???????


did i just miss something?

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
So it possible we can experience changes in the past if someone alters it?

What a synchronicity! I was just thinking about, and talking about this very thing. Was time altered? With my knowledge of the Montauk Project, (use search function) which as I understand it culminated in 1963, curiously the same year we Americas lost the best president who ever lived and walked, and a true American hero, John F. Kennedy... to the murderous bunch that still today runs this nation, both the legal, and the illegal parts. I submit that time has been altered, not just once, but many times. I know the Montauk people spent a great deal of time around the wars we have been involved in, especially WW2.
We have no real way of knowing what they did, or how must they did, but in my mind, and obviously your mind also, time has been changed and we did not notice it, or, if we did, not much. I am 56 years old. It seems like the time when I was a young man are many many years ago instead of just 30 or so, and everything seems to be different now. Today someone was telling me about how hot it has been, and I replied that when I was a boy in the field, it was a lot hotter than now. I run a Mason Jar type HHO reactor on my van, and the gasket for the lid is worn, and needs to be replaced. I went to a hardware store and asked for the gasket, the young girl didn't know what a Mason Jar was, so I walked over to an older man, maybe 10 years my senior, and asked him. He told me those were used on the lead tops, and since lead was now banned, they didn't make them anymore. I says, since when? About 30 years, he said. I remember like it was yesterday my Mom using those lids and the red rubber gaskets hanging by the sink, but it was another lifetime.

I do not think we live on the original timeline, it has been changed, and I think I know how. In the books they tell how time can be recorded, and played back on a video screen. I think the did this, and fed the information, the time, back into the timeline until an alternate timeline was created. The original timeline? I do not know where it went. I do believe they cross ever so often. Will we ever wake up long enough to get back to the original timeline?
Thanks for making me think, now I will be up all night!

Originally posted by Robbed In Albion.

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
There is a difference from an analogy and actual thing happening.

[edit on 24-7-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

So does that not render your analogy useless?

Ah I was thinking about that myself good point!

We're tied 1 to 1.

But in all SERIOUSNESS there is a difference from showing a number line changing with time then there is an actual time travel occurring, but there principles are basically the same.

[edit on 24-7-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

Originally posted by Gentill Abdulla
Ah I was thinking about that myself good point!

We're tied 1 to 1.

But in all SERIOUSNESS there is a difference from showing a number line changing with time then there is an actual time travel occurring, but there principles are basically the same.

[edit on 24-7-2010 by Gentill Abdulla]

Hahaa. I may not be as well versed in the subject matter as some of you obviously are, but I'm wise enough to spot a mistake like that.

And yes, in all seriousness, I do understand where you're coming from with the whole number line thing.

I'm still standing firm with my argument though!

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
Let's say this:You woke up one morning and see a bunch of Soviet Troops walking down the streets in your American town. You read a newspaper and see it's 2010. Then you wondered why and ask yourself isn't the Cold War over? You went to library and discovered that the Soviets Invaded the US in 1989 (for unknown reasons)
(Athough the person doesn't know it, it turns out that a time traveler has change the course of history that allows the Soviets to invade the US)

So it possible we can experience changes in the past if someone alters it?



[edit on 24-7-2010 by starwarsisreal]

I say "Yes".

It is something that occurs to some of us at some point in time. It does happen. But, the witnesses are not all "cleansed". I think maybe the process must not be perfected yet. I am embarassed to ask others about timeline shifts that I personally have experienced...

I just hope that this "gap" of perfection keeps it from "sticking". I like to think that: if some of us still question the validity of current records that differ from our personal recollections that maybe ... just maybe...

We are time travelers also. It is not a machine. It is not some technology. It is the power of thought. My thoughts could change your tommorrow. Your thoughts could change mine.

I say "Yes".

cmariesees

any one of us can change the past......
no machine needed.

it's like when I dream of the little girl behind the barbed wire with the oh so blank eyes...(me, in a past life??))...and I reachout to hug her.......

if there is more to you than what you see in this physical world, and I believe there is....then you are also elsewhere, and can reach out to those other parts of yourself. if you happen to have been hitler in a former life, or one of his close buddies, well, you could reach out to them, convince them not to invade russia...such a stupid idea...and well.....alas, the US and her allies never won the war.

for the most part, this method doesn't really bring significant worldwide earthchanges simply because most of us weren't and aren't in a position to significantly change the world, but well, it can be effectively used to change you.

and well, most people wouldn't notice if their past were changed, they would wake up and everything would be normal to them, although there are a few who might notice.....
case in point, there are people out there who would swear that Mandella was killed in prison, but well, we all know that he didn't.


[edit on 25-7-2010 by dawnstar]