Israel Palestine: One-State Debate Explodes Myth About the Zionist Left

Originally posted by oozyism
No, the Settlement expansions has.

And it is still continuing, and it is illegal, and the occupation is illegal.
What occupation are you referring to, specifically? Are you talking 1967 onwards, or 1948 onwards? This is where you are creating confusion.

Stop confusing the problem, that is why we still haven't found a solution, because people like you don't understand the problem.

People like me are sick of hearing about this conflict; it's a continual "they are to blame, it's our land" coming from both sides. Most people in the world want Peace in that region - the Fate of the world may rest on the outcome of this conflict.

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Why are you so concerned about wars?

I'm talking about the problem, the occupation of Palestine is a problem, the continuous expansion of Jewish settlement is a problem.

Wars do not mean you can occupy people against their wishes, and kick them out of their land. That is idiotic the least, but most pro Zionist lobby make that argument.

What occupation are you referring to, specifically? Are you talking 1967 onwards, or 1948 onwards? This is where you are creating confusion.

Umm OK Since you are so interested in dates let's start from the European Jews running from European prosecution, to Palestine.

Before which Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived without any conflict.


[edit on 23-7-2010 by oozyism]

Originally posted by oozyism
Why are you so concerned about wars?

I'm talking about the problem, the occupation of Palestine is a problem, the continuous expansion of Jewish settlement is a problem.

Again, can you please be more specific. Are you talking about the expansion SINCE 1967, or SINCE 1948?
(The poster above me suggested there was mostly worldwide consensus on the 1967 boarders, even to this day. I am asking why there have been so many wars even since those boarders were established.)

Wars do not mean you can occupy people against their wishes, and kick them out of their land. That is idiotic the least, but most pro Zionist lobby make that argument.

It shouldn't...but as history shows us Wars are usually not very fair are they? There are many other people, besides the Palestinians, that have had their land taken from them with force against their will. Are we going to ignore other parts of history where land has been obtained by acts of War?

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Again, can you please be more specific. Are you talking about the expansion SINCE 1967, or SINCE 1948?
(The poster above me suggested there was mostly worldwide consensus on the 1967 boarders, even to this day. I am asking why there have been so many wars even since those boarders were established.)

Settlement expansions since the two state solution was put on the table.

It shouldn't...but as history shows us Wars are usually not very fair are they? The Palestinians are far from the only people to have their land forcibly taken from them against their will. Are we going to ignore history selectively?

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Wars are unfair? OK, so you are being a realist are you now?

So you are saying what people did in the past, makes it OK. Like my dad raped a girl, so I will do it too kind of thing? Is that the justification?

What is your solution to the problem then? Do you want Palestinians to leave the whole of Palestine?

What occupation are you referring to, specifically? Are you talking 1967 onwards, or 1948 onwards? This is where you are creating confusion.

Umm OK Since you are so interested in dates let's start from the European Jews running from European prosecution, to Palestine.

Before which Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived without any conflict.


[edit on 23-7-2010 by oozyism]

Five years after Israel’s unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip, Palestinians living there are still waiting for the housing projects and factories the international community promised them.

The areas where most of the settlements once stood have yet to be transformed into apartments and working places for thousands of unemployed Palestinians who used to work in the Jewish communities.

Promises that the Gaza Strip would be turned into the Middle East’s Hong Kong or Singapore sound today like a joke to many Palestinians.

These promises were made on the eve of the disengagement by many governments and leaders all around the world, including Israel.

It’s hard today to find one Palestinian who would point to anything positive that has come out of the pullout. In fact, Palestinians across the political spectrum agree that the situation inside the Gaza Strip is not much better than it was before the disengagement.

The Palestinian Authority continues to argue that the unilateral disengagement was one of the reasons why Hamas is in power today. Not that the PA didn’t want Israel to leave the Gaza Strip.

“The idea of an Israeli withdrawal [from the Gaza Strip] was good,” said a PA official in Ramallah.

“But the way it was carried out – unilaterally – was a mistake because it strengthened Hamas.” Indeed, Hamas continues to take credit for “driving” Israel out. Leaders and spokesmen of the Islamist movement insist that the suicide bombing campaign and the Kassam rockets were the main reason behind Israel’s decision to “run away” from Gaza.

Many Palestinians and Arabs seem to share the view that Israel fled because of the suicide and rocket attacks. This is perhaps one of the reasons why a majority of them voted for Hamas a few months later.

The January 2006 parliamentary election which brought Hamas to power was not only about internal reforms and financial corruption, but also about the conflict with Israel. Taking credit for the Israeli pullout, Hamas argued that violence was the only language it understood. The peace talks, Hamas explained to the Palestinians, did not bring them as much as the suicide bombings and rockets have.

“Unilateral disengagement sent a message to Palestinians that if you negotiate with Israel, you don’t get as much as you do as when you kill Jews,” said another PA official. “Ariel Sharon made a huge mistake when he refused to coordinate the withdrawal with the Palestinian Authority or any other party.” The PA official, who served as a close adviser to Mahmoud Abbas at the time, says that many Palestinians are still convinced that Sharon’s real intention was to undermine the PA.

"Sharon did not want the Palestinian Authority to succeed in the Gaza Strip and that’s why he refused to deal with us before the withdrawal,” the official claimed. “Sharon wanted to see Hamas in power so that he could tell the world that the Palestinians are not interested in a state and that their only intention is to destroy Israel.”

ACCORDING TO the PA and various sources in the Gaza Strip, Hamas is today much stronger than it was five years ago. If disengagement was regarded a moral victory for the movement, Israel’s departure from the Philadelphi Corridor along the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt has enabled Hamas to smuggle in large amounts of weapons of various types.


Hamas became so strong that in the summer of 2007, exactly three years ago, its militias and gangs managed to kick the PA out of the Gaza Strip. PA and Fatah officials say that were it not for Israel’s hasty and unilateral withdrawal, Hamas would have never been able to build such a huge military force.

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman’s new plan for a further disengagement, where Israel would stop supplying the Gaza Strip with water and electricity, has left both Hamas and the PA wondering about Israel’s true intentions.

The Palestinians’ biggest fear is that “disengagement 2” would solidify the split between the West Bank and Gaza Strip and make it permanent. They see the new plan as an Israeli attempt to create a separate Palestinian entity in the Gaza Strip that would be completely cut off from the West Bank.

“Israel wants to turn the Gaza Strip into a small Palestinian state,” charged Hamas legislator Salah Bardaweel. “This is a dangerous plan because it’s also designed to absolve Israel of its responsibilities as an occupation force.”

As far as the PA is concerned, the first disengagement was a disaster because it boosted Hamas’s popularity and paved the way for the movement’s victory in the 2006 election and its subsequent violent takeover of the Gaza Strip.

For Hamas, “disengagement 2” is bad because it would further isolate the Islamist regime. Hamas is worried that a complete disengagement would prompt the international community to stop holding Israel responsible for the miseries of the Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip. It’s as if Hamas is saying, “Please Israel, stay here in one form or another because we need to hold you responsible; otherwise, the people will start asking us difficult questions.”

Originally posted by oozyism
Settlement expansions since the two state solution was put on the table.

Finally, a clear answer.

Wars are unfair? OK, so you are being a realist are you now?

So you are saying what people did in the past, makes it OK. Like my dad raped a girl, so I will do it too kind of thing? Is that the justification?

That's not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is that you are singling out the Palestinian-Israeli as the only time in recent history where unjust war has been waged to secure land. We both know that is not true.

What is your solution to the problem then? Do you want Palestinians to leave the whole of Palestine?

Read my reply. I believe a two-state solution is the way to go; an independent state named Palestine coexisting with an independent state named Israel. My concern has always been how "key areas" will be divided.

Umm OK Since you are so interested in dates let's start from the European Jews running from European prosecution, to Palestine.

Get ready, because my answer is going to shock you! I believe the region which was allocated to Israel was a massive error! Considering the events of WW2, a segment of Europe should have been given to Jews who were fleeing persecution. I know you think you are probably hallucinating, so I will repeat myself: the creation of Israel in terms of geographical location was a big mistake! The Jews were rightfully entitled to a land of their own where they could be protected from persecution. The region chosen was the error. The Palestinians should not have had their land taken from them.

The trouble we face now is that 7,000,000+ people live in that region which today we call Israel. The overwhelming majority of which just want to live in a peace and security in the place they were born and where they have been raised. It is not the average Israel that is the problem; it is the Government and those who used to be in power and who carry influence. Can you understand now where I am coming from on this issue?

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by oozyism


That is an interesting read, thank you for posting it.

It would seem more than one side had "suspicious" motivations for the Gaza disengagement.

[edit on 23/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


out of the 7million Israels
Get the Duel Nationals to leave unless they live on Israeli land Pre 1967
and those that left europe to live on occupied land.

Israel claims to be at a state of war with Gaza/west bank (Palestine)
so they are breaking international laws by expanding their boarders they have declared a war zone. which is against UN laws.

Reason i say one state solution is the only way is for this reason only
Israel will keep putting squatters on *cough* disputed land.
so at the end of the day if it were two state solution, palestine would be nothing more then couple of villages spread all around the place surrounded by Israeli land as they claim with their settlements

reply to post by PuterMan


Under a one state solution there is no such thing as Israeli land nor Palestinian land. There is only land. You buy and sell it.

Your statement is a clear sign of indoctrination to divisional life style and is no different than the "blacks only" and "whites only" jim crow laws in the south.

To state "the Palestinians won't get their land back" under this statements is indifferent to stating the whites won't get their bus seats back.

Simply put, tough sh*t.

Under a one state solution Palestinian and Israeli land does not exist. it is just land, nothing more. You can buy it, sell it, sh*t on it, build on it. Does not matter. Dirt is dirt and dirt is there.

I fully endorse such a direction.

reply to post by oozyism

Before which Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived without any conflict.

Why twist history? This piece of land had so many wars and was conquered so many time that what you say is impossible.
Want a brief history lesson on "no conflicts" in Israel/Palestine since 622?
630-s: Muslim conquest of Christian Byzantine province of Syria.
790-s: War between two Arab tribes.
1070s:War between Fatimids and Seljuks.
1090s:Bloody crusades with Christians killing Muslims and Jews (and local Christians) with almost constant fighting until 1200s.
1300s: Mamluks vs Mongols.
1480s: Mamluks vs Turks.
1800s: Ottoman empire vs Napoleon.
1830s: Ottoman empire vs Egyptians and Egyptians vs local revolts.
1914: WW1.
Yup. Peace ,tolerance and tranquility. Until Jews came and took over and demanded from Arabs to pay special taxes,turning Mosques into Synagogues..... Oh, wait.... It was over way around.

reply to post by Gorman91

I fully endorse such a direction.

The problem is that while it sounds nice, it cannot happen. Majority of Israelis would not trust a Palestinian in a government and vice versa. It will be super easy for fanatics on both sides to ignite situation into a civil war pretty soon, taking mutual mistrust and spilled blood.
So instead of both eevil genocidal Zionists and murderous eevil terrorists killing tens of thousands in 6 decades of mutual conflict, you will have hundreds of thousands of dead and intervention by UN forces.
So i fail to see how it will be better then two countries with a hostile but stable border.

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Same thing was true for post-civil war America. We just kept on going and not caring. Wasn't until the Democrats re-igniting the race war through the mid 1900s that it came back. And then we had the whole peaceful reformation movement. Oh sure there were race wars, but there were also people who did not do that.

I really could not care less what the people bicker and moan about if it were to happen. We're here, we're one, get used to it.

[edit on 23-7-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by illusive man


The idea would be that Palestinians have an independent state. The Israelis would have an independent state. What exists in those sovereign lands are determined by what the people living there want. If Israelis want to build settlements while being inside Palestine, they will have to immigrate and instead build on Israeli land. If Palestinians wish to build settlements while inside Israel, they will need to move to Palestine to do so.

Once a set of internationally recognised and universally accepted list of boarders has been established in terms of today's context that is relatively fair to both sides, then we can proceed forward. Calling for the deportation of all Israelis living in post 1967+ land is unfair because most people that live there now are innocent civilians that were simply born and raised there.

That is why we need to stop living in the past. We need to look at the reality of the world and the situaiton in the ME as of today, right now. This will end up being a never-ending Conflict if each side continues to advocate for the mass-displacement of the other side.

[edit on 24/7/2010 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Read what I wrote before jumping to conclusions. I stated that before the European Jews came, there was no conflict between Jews, Muslims and Christians.

We are talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and how it started. Don't go thousands of years back to prove your point.

It started when European Jews came.

reply to post by Gorman91

Here it is not United states. Here it is Middle East. With its own quirks.
As an example of what might happen (and it might happen this way or the other but something similar will happen) -
Jews throw stones on Muslim driver who drives through Jewish are in Yom Kippur. Arab police commander tries to restore the peace and arrests those involved. Jewish extremists storm police station, wounded and dead and violence spreads like fire. Military tries to get involved but it is not united since core is ex-Israelis and there is a mistrust between old and new soldiers. So it gets worse.
Neighboring countries get involved due to ethnic cleansing rumors. Total mayhe and mutual bloodshed.
So UN has to intervene and as a result there is no Israel, no Palestine, no Israstine (or Palestel) - it is all torn into parts by neighbors and UN.
You think that it will not happen? It might not but something similar WILL and result will be the same. There are lots of reason why there was no independent nation in this area since crusades.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Calling for the deportation of all Israelis living in post 1967+ land is unfair because most people that live there now are innocent civilians that were simply born and raised there.

and? Large percentage of Israelis arent born on the soil, israel still continues to bring in Jews from Africa and so on, increasing their numbers and exanding their boarders due to their mass import of people from other countries,
anyone that chooses to live on anaxed land due to their deluded faith isnt innocent.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
There are lots of reason why there was no independent nation in this area since crusades.

because all you people are nut cases trying to bring your messaih on both sides?
i adovacate nuking the place, that way we get to prove whos gods right

[edit on 24-7-2010 by illusive man]

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


Your description of the area sounds like an average day in Harlem or something. So I fail to see how it is that different. Losers arguing about loser topics. Who cares? Let them complain. The sore losers will blow themselves up and the lesser losers will have to work together. Case closed.