Cameron Roles out "Big Society" plans

reply to post by ZuluChaka


Wouldn't it just be better that you didn't have such a problem in the first place. Surely America, the richest most powerful nation on the planet and you have to have tent cities? How can you justify that with so much wealth and opulence in your society. You cant just blame these people for being lazy, which I imagine you do

reply to post by ChrisF231


Great point. That is what big government does to people. It keeps them in a childlike dependent state. Basically, the psychology is that of learned helplessness. We see it all the time here in the states from people who have been generationally raised on government entitlement programs and now think they are incapable of work even though they are healthy.

It is the same in unions. Ever worked in a place with a union? I have and it is amazing to see a 50 year old man act like an 8 yr old and throw a tantrum because you asked him to do some work that he says isnt in his contract, but he is just sitting there on his ass not doing anything or plotting the next 8yr old prank that he is going to pull on his co-worker. Where I worked it was a paper mill and they used to like to "black" each others wieners with the ink they used to mark the roles.

Now I will give you that it was hilarious to watch a bunch of grown men hold down another grown man to mark up his manhood, but not really great for profits.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


The point is that in the end it is better to have a few end up in tent villages and have most of the populace be self sufficient than it is to have a nation full of cry babies who expect the government to protect them from lifes bumps and bruises.

On the other hand, hopefully there are people who have intervened at this point. It may be that these guys prefer this over having to live under the rules in a homeless shelter, you know rules like you cant be drunk or high when you enter the shelter for the evening.

reply to post by ZuluChaka


I would argue, most people in America wanted the American dream, not to be living out there days in a tent. You make it sound real rosy, like a big camping trip. Maybe you should get down to one sounds like a right laugh.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


There is the lesson for you. Not everyone in the world gets what they want. Life is sometimes cruel. Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. Sometimes people end up in tent villages and realise its time to get their crap together. Sometimes people live in tents the rest of their lives. Sometimes people die in tents. Its life. Life is not always fair.

Sometimes people meet these people and open up their homes to them. Sometimes seeing something like this spurs on an individual to open a new shelter. Sometimes people see this and give these guys a shot at a job.

We dont need the government to take care of us or to take our money in the guise of helping others. Personally, I would rather live in a tent and be free than have a giant government that is going to go bankrupt under its own weight.

Do you realise that the people that built this country had it a lot worse and still had it better than most people in the world?

[edit on 19-7-2010 by ZuluChaka]

Originally posted by ZuluChaka
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

There is the lesson for you. Not everyone in the world gets what they want. Life is sometimes cruel. Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. Sometimes people end up in tent villages and realise its time to get their crap together. Sometimes people live in tents the rest of their lives. Sometimes people die in tents. Its life. Life is not always fair.

Sometimes people meet these people and open up their homes to them. Sometimes seeing something like this spurs on an individual to open a new shelter. Sometimes people see this and give these guys a shot at a job.

We dont need the government to take care of us or to take our money in the guise of helping others. Personally, I would rather live in a tent and be free than have a giant government that is going to go bankrupt under its own weight.

Do you realise that the people that built this country had it a lot worse and still had it better than most people in the world?

[edit on 19-7-2010 by ZuluChaka]

So you choose not to prevent something that's easily preventable because you're afraid of the government trying to help others?

Because that's what I got from your post.

I don't know much about the specifics, I'm not British and I don't follow British politics too closely, but the statement in the OP strikes me as a possible master-stroke of doublethink.

It sounds like what is going to happen is, like almost everywhere else on planet earth right now, the fever-dream of hallucinated wealth created out of nothing is evaporating back into the nothingness from whence it came. Therefore, there is less to go around. This is not a left-right thing, its just a basic fact. So services will have to be cut. This means, for good or ill, a shrinking, not a growing, of the concept of "society." So what better way to mask it than to use the word "big society" even as "society" shrinks?

Meanwhile, they are talking about taking power from the elites and giving it to the common man. lol. The exact opposite is what happens whenever there are deep service cuts: those with the means to provide for themselves hunker down and pay for everything privately, while those who can't just sink deeper into the mire.

Hired a man once that was living under a bridge. He was hard working and consistent. I paid him quite well, problem was, most of his money went to the pub. A small part went to a place to live.

For five years he worked for me.

$220k he was given in that time frame. That was under the table folks. Know what he had to show for it after that time? NOTHING.

Take your bleeding hearts and shove them. Some people cannot survive in a society like ours. What are we supposed to do with people like this?

Keep giving them more than people that ACTUALLY save and attempt to improve their lives? People that actually deserve a chance to thrive.

Nope, everyone deserves to live in the same crappy apartment he lived in, so that people like him can just drink and not even ATTEMPT to save for the future.

No bleeding heart here.

reply to post by endisnighe


You should move to Britain, you would love our new Government, with comments like that, they would probably make you home secretary

Originally posted by silent thunder
I don't know much about the specifics, I'm not British and I don't follow British politics too closely, but the statement in the OP strikes me as a possible master-stroke of doublethink.

It sounds like what is going to happen is, like almost everywhere else on planet earth right now, the fever-dream of hallucinated wealth created out of nothing is evaporating back into the nothingness from whence it came. Therefore, there is less to go around. This is not a left-right thing, its just a basic fact. So services will have to be cut. This means, for good or ill, a shrinking, not a growing, of the concept of "society." So what better way to mask it than to use the word "big society" even as "society" shrinks?

Meanwhile, they are talking about taking power from the elites and giving it to the common man. lol. The exact opposite is what happens whenever there are deep service cuts: those with the means to provide for themselves hunker down and pay for everything privately, while those who can't just sink deeper into the mire.

You pretty much nailed it. It's all a smoke screen, giving power back to the communities means "Do it yourself" Society.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Well, I would not want it, that would mean there is no way in hell I could get the job. Those that want a position of power are narcissistic by nature.

What do you do when the well is dry?

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

.

What do you do when the well is dry?

For a start you dont give water from your well to quench the thirsts of greedy bankers hungover from drinking too much champagne.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Oh, I agree with that. Definitely. They are the ones in control of everything.

Hey, I have always been charitable. In my family, friends, community.

The problem with collectivism, you do not know what the government is going to do with the labor you are forced to provide for the "greater good". Seems the governments like to foment war, give their corporate whores and their bank masters all the fruits of my labor, control the choices that I make with my life, create 1984esque societies, fail to prosecute real criminals and go after people they call criminals where there is no victim, etc.

I could go on, but you get my idea.

Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

Oh, I agree with that. Definitely. They are the ones in control of everything.

Hey, I have always been charitable. In my family, friends, community.

The problem with collectivism, you do not know what the government is going to do with the labor you are forced to provide for the "greater good". Seems the governments like to foment war, give their corporate whores and their bank masters all the fruits of my labor, control the choices that I make with my life, create 1984esque societies, fail to prosecute real criminals and go after people they call criminals where there is no victim, etc.

I could go on, but you get my idea.

That's strange really.

There I was thinking they did all sorts of things like funding our healthcare, maintaining our hospitals, funding our armed services, our emergency services, regulating various businesses to prevent them intentionally putting poison in our food to improve their profit margins, funding the majority of our education system, maintaining our museums to keep them free and open to the public, funding libraries to keep them free and open to the public, maintaining our roads, giving all manner of benefits to all manner of people (much, if not most of the UK population receives government welfare of some description) and much, much more.

My mistake.

[edit on 31-7-2010 by LeftWingLarry]

Originally posted by endisnighe
Hired a man once that was living under a bridge. He was hard working and consistent. I paid him quite well, problem was, most of his money went to the pub. A small part went to a place to live.

For five years he worked for me.

$220k he was given in that time frame. That was under the table folks. Know what he had to show for it after that time? NOTHING.

Take your bleeding hearts and shove them. Some people cannot survive in a society like ours. What are we supposed to do with people like this?

Keep giving them more than people that ACTUALLY save and attempt to improve their lives? People that actually deserve a chance to thrive.

Nope, everyone deserves to live in the same crappy apartment he lived in, so that people like him can just drink and not even ATTEMPT to save for the future.

No bleeding heart here.

Interesting story on many levels. Thanks for sharing.

First, it was kind and proper for you to look beyond his homeless status and to recognize his talent and work effort and give him decent-paying work.

Second, it was foolish of him to waste all that money on liquor or wahtever. Still, its his money and he can do what he wants. But I'm guessing he'll live to regret it.

Third, you are correct that people in this position should not be given handouts if they are abke to work and amass far more money than the middle class. If they waste it all through weakness or stupidity its their own fault, not society, and they shouldn't be coddled.

I wounder how many people there are like this? In the US, II have heard, some cities run scam where certain pathetic-looking people pose as fake disabled Vietnam-vet war victims and often make a lot of money from sympathetic passers-by. They give kickbacks to people like local police officers and the mafia to ensure their space on a certain busy streetcorner, preferably somewhere where rich people live or work, and keep out "competitors." Some of these people get 6 figures a year in cash, tax-free, only paying taxes to corrupt officials. Its a sick scam because there are lots of actual real homeless vets who need help and respect and these vultures are syphoning off the sympathy and gullabilty of the general public. Of couesemost homelessness are not as evil and caluclating but it shows how the system cab be, and will be, gamed.

Originally posted by ZuluChaka
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

Ok in the USA, people donate money or needed items to most charities in order for them to fund the things they need. Why dont you all just do that.

This happens, at least it does where I am. We're hardly a rich family, but anything we don't want goes straight to one of the many local charity shops.

I am always amazed when I hear Europeans talk, because the sense of government dependence is unbelievable. How did you all function before the government did everything for you?

Last time I checked, the government doesn't 'do everything for us'.