It's really sad how some people here refuse to deal in facts.

I've got to agree with the OP here. Sure it's a catastrophic f up from BP that is doing a huge amount of damage.

But some of the 'opinions' or FACTS as they seem to be stated of global destruction, half of the US becoming uninhabitable and giant volcanic explosions that are going to destroy the entire planet are just insane.

ATS in the last six months seems to have become increasingly paranoid to an almost disturbing level. What most people would consider crazy theories (no problem with people discussing theories, that's kind of the whole point in ATS), are now aggressively being pushed as FACT, with nothing other than random conjecture as the only thing to back them up. I remember one post of a family who were going to evacuate their home due to the spill and what they believed would happen due to some of the insane ramblings of the paranoid and possibly deranged fear mongers.

People need to realise what they are saying could actually affect other peoples decisions, so please don;t state things as facts until you know them to be so, otherwise you're just going down a very dangerous route!

Personally, I have zero problem with some really "out there" theories being floated around; if nothing else, it gives more balanced members a chance to chew on them and see just how much is reality-based and how much is just smoke and mirrors.

Which I kind of think is the main point of ATS, to get to the bottom line of an issue and figure out what we should be aware of and what we don't need to worry about.

I've never seen an issue that was immediately too hot or too strange not to be worth some debate.

I'm reminded of the movie Conspiracy Theory - just when you think Jerry is a nutcase, we find out otherwise. Bring on the really far-out stuff! The only thing worse than a total bulls*t stance on something is letting such an assertion go unchallenged.

Originally posted by crezo

ATS in the last six months seems to have become increasingly paranoid to an almost disturbing level. What most people would consider crazy theories (no problem with people discussing theories, that's kind of the whole point in ATS), are now aggressively being pushed as FACT, with nothing other than random conjecture as the only thing to back them up.

This point by itself is what worries me the most about the ATS comunity. I've been a lurker for quite some time and this fear mongering taken as factual data has gotten an increased and dangerous momentum.

This place houses amazing conspiracy discussions, all of them civil, rational, and of course sceptically balanced.

I have no idea what the hell happened to the collective but after the DWH explosion it seems that all not only the platform sunk, but it also took all the reasoning and logical arguments down to the seafloor.

It's angering to see how people don't even try to understand what an incredibly complex engineering maneuver these guys are working on, 24/7. It's insulting !

Yes, they've been hiding data. Yes, they've been also lying about the facts and numbers, but for the love of all things holy, the laws of physics fortunately for all of us are not affected by opinions.

Calm down people. Seriously.

Originally posted by SaosinEngaged
With a disaster as horrible is this, it greatly irritates me how hyperbolic many posters have become.

Thinking everything is a lie, everything is a cover up, the world is ending in a methane explosion of fiery doom and pain, an earthquake that's going to crack the earth in two and pop open like an easter egg...

Enough already.

Stop letting wild speculation get the best of you. Deal with the facts. Don't let the opinion of some random "expert" take hold of you and allow you to propogate that opinion as fact. It's really sad the extent to which that happens here on this board.

Like the topic on the main page about BP "obviously" covering up another leak. Everyone's acting like that's some sort of fact, when the reality is it's nothing more than wild speculation. Treat it as such.

Remember, deny ignorance. It works both ways. Just because we're wise to conspiracy theories doesn't mean we turn EVERYTHING into some massive doomsday conspiracy.

It angers me, because even after the well has capped, it almost seems like some of you WANT this catastrophe to continue so you can propogate more of this world ending doomsday nonsense. It's really aggrivating.

The spill is bad enough, we don't need layers of hyperbole added on top of it. I can respect everyone's opinion, but only if it isn't propogated as fact.

Just because you heard XXXX from YYYY doesn't mean XXXX is going to happen or that YYYYY is even as credible a source as you seem to believe.

what makes you think the possibility isnt there regarding a methane worst case scenario?

so youre saying BP has been completely truthful regarding its evil acts towards our planet? are you admitting youre oblivious to their lies?

i hear your argument as valid, but why would you give them the benefit of the doubt regarding this being part of a bigger more dangerous picture?

edit to add this other thread, dont want to deny facts now do we?

www.abovetopsecret.com...&flagit=594674

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Cobra.EXE]

Originally posted by SaosinEngaged
With a disaster as horrible is this, it greatly irritates me how hyperbolic many posters have become.

Thinking everything is a lie, everything is a cover up, the world is ending in a methane explosion of fiery doom and pain, an earthquake that's going to crack the earth in two and pop open like an easter egg...

Enough already.

Stop letting wild speculation get the best of you. Deal with the facts. Don't let the opinion of some random "expert" take hold of you and allow you to propogate that opinion as fact. It's really sad the extent to which that happens here on this board.

Like the topic on the main page about BP "obviously" covering up another leak. Everyone's acting like that's some sort of fact, when the reality is it's nothing more than wild speculation. Treat it as such.

Remember, deny ignorance. It works both ways. Just because we're wise to conspiracy theories doesn't mean we turn EVERYTHING into some massive doomsday conspiracy.

It angers me, because even after the well has capped, it almost seems like some of you WANT this catastrophe to continue so you can propogate more of this world ending doomsday nonsense. It's really aggrivating.

The spill is bad enough, we don't need layers of hyperbole added on top of it. I can respect everyone's opinion, but only if it isn't propogated as fact.

Just because you heard XXXX from YYYY doesn't mean XXXX is going to happen or that YYYYY is even as credible a source as you seem to believe.

I agree and disagree. I've seen here that yes some are quick to the conspiratorial/doomsday trigger. This is the nature of the beast so to speak you are on a conspiratorial forum.

Having said that, you do have to also acknowledge that "FACTS" are subjective and most "FACTS" are actually just strong evidence. A fact is something that cannot be refuted PERIOD.

Not to mention that some "facts" are fabricated and perpetuated by those with enough influence to make you belive those "facts" ie: Scientists at universities whos "research" is funded by "special interests". That is a conflict of interest that perpetuates falsehoods and lies of the most influential kind.

As far as teh BP catastrophe goes there is ALOT of evidence that BP are Liars so their witness testimony will always be screutinzed and rightfully so. So when BP says "hurray well capped!" the reaction should be skepticism. Just as when BP says "no way to tell how much is leaking" or "leaking only 5000 bpd" wait no "10000 Bpd" so on and so fourth.


I will agree that there is alot of "sensationalism" though when people speculate what exactly is going on, good or bad.

I do however ask, when in a very dangerous situation do you sit and wait for facts until you act?

That man pointing a gun at your pregnant wife....hmm lets do some tests and get some witness testimony going to see if that gun is real and to see if it is indeed actually loaded. Then after that well check and see if he has a history of violent crimes to see if he really means it.

I know what I would do and it would be based on A LOT of assumption but hell better assuming the worst then assuming the best in this case.

Honestly I think a lot of people here are just theorizing and speculating because they question the facts their given which seems to be the natural thing to do when you question anything your told, you start figuring out your own answer.






[edit on 18-7-2010 by Sly1one]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Sly1one]

Instead of worrying about facts or who's lying or who's responsible maybe we should be talking about what can be done about it?

Can't they reroute the oil somehow?There's got to be something they can do besides capping it.Because I don't think capping this one will work for long.This isn't your normal leak.

Redirecting it might work.Or they could search for all the leaks(if that's possible)and fill them in somehow.But then that would cause pressure to build back at the original leak and blow the cap off.

Well informed people will be paranoid people.

My point is is that,What do you tell the public?

I would think not to eat seafood would be one thing.But then think of the hell that would cause.Question is,should we worry?Darn right.I like to know if what I'm eating is going to kill me or not.

Why not ask the public for help?I mean 3 months is a long time for oil to be spilling into the ocean.What if it's already in all the oceans?

Seafood stock is going to fall at a dangerous rate for the economy.

this is 2 big
do some
nowlast chance

reply to post by Whine Flu


it aint abot gred its an attack
do u know which rights u still have?
let me tell u
NONE
well,U have the right to be killed and extracted for resources
ill give u that

reply to post by crezo


I completely agree.

Now listen, throwing out ideas of methan explosions or Godzilla coming out of this well is all fine and dandy. These are "possibilities". These types of things should be debated if they can happen based on facts, not just opinions.

Remember deny ignorance.

With regards to the BP spill, I have seen some very interesting facts and debates, but I have also seen some threads and posts ranging from fear mongering to the completely insane.

Both sides of this argument have a valid point. There are some outlandish claims being made here on ATS.

However, just two weeks ago if anyone said that the sea floor was leaking, they were branded as heretics, and doom and gloomers. The response commander, Thad Allen, talked about the sea floor leaking as recently as yesterday.

And, the same people were branded as heretics when they said that the flow rate was dramtically bigger than 5,000 barrels per day in the beginning. Until this was capped, we were at 35,000-60,000.

My point is that yes, an undersea explosion or end-of-the-world case might not have too much scientific proof and IMO, will not happen, but it seems like those people on here that like to make fun of and ridicule the so-called 'doom and gloomers' never stop to say, "Oh yeah, you all were right to say and post before the MSM that the leak was 10X bigger than BP said, or that there are indeed leaks in the sea floor, or that COREXIT is stunningly dangerous stuff, or the tons of different threads here on ATS that have been proven correct."

Hysteria does indeed suck, and it does lead to panic, which is a horrible emotional state to be in that clouds judgment.

But it would be great for the 'everything is ok and gosh darn it, BP is trying their best, and please stop scaring me' people to stop making fun of the other people.

A spirited debate about controversy and conspiracy is at the core of ATS.

Both sides of the argument do have some valid points, but a higher level of civility from both sides would be very nice indeed.

reply to post by silo13

And if you're pretending we're being told the truth?
Then I've got one of those peaches to sell you.

BP's altered photo distorts spill center activity

BP acknowledges it posted on its website an altered photo that exaggerates the activity at its Gulf oil spill command center in Houston.

The picture posted over the weekend showed workers monitoring a bank of 10 giant video screens displaying underwater images.

link

How many lies is this now from BP

But hey, it's a shame people refuse to deal in facts right?

WHAT FACTS!

peac

reply to post by mydarkpassenger


I dont think the OP, or really anyone is saying they dont like 'out there theories' as much as they are saying they tire of seeing people confuse speculation as fact.

i think the endless stream of threads predicting all kinds of nonsense are evidence enough that many people here dont understand how to use the language properly.

As if waiting to do a just a little more research before you post would somehow be a BAD thing.

Peer-review means people aggressively shooting holes in a theory. Can oyu imagine if a scientist published a theory, called it fact, and then called anyone of his peers 'shills' for doing their job by picking the theory apart?

aggressive critique helps us ALL get closer to something resembling truth.

quote:About the gulf.I just saw on the news that even though it's capped the pressure is no where near it should be which in their own words "which could mean another leak that they don't know about".

So they are not sure right now.

rep
ummh i think they are
presuure to low means theres another leak
theres no maybe about it