what do governments really have?

A question for ATS, what do world governments really have? I mean how many years ahead are they weapons wise then what is public? Example: How many years ahead are their top secret aircraft then the conventional aircraft they have today, this thread was made for intelligent discussion and since it's top secret it's not like we'll ever know for sure, so all opinions are equal. Care to discuss?



These two threads made me think to make this thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...
credit goes to k3rm1t on this one


and www.abovetopsecret.com...
credit to this thread goes to metalaholic

I recommend you go to both of them, they are very interesting!

[edit on 2-7-2010 by XxRagingxPandaxX]

well, if you look at how most technology corporations work (and our government is, in my mind, a corporation), i would say they are years ahead. for example, apple already has the NEXT iPod practically ready to roll when they release a new one. since many private corporations make our weapons, id say they do the same. just off the top of my head, id say we have satellite bombers able to be equipped with nuclear warheads ready to launch into orbit. probably a lot of laser technology as well.

however, i also believe we have a secret space program, underground tunnels, and alien technology, so some might find my opinions crazy.

reply to post by mooseinhisglory
hmm true, like boeing and mcdonald douglas are two private companies that come to mind, why do you think we have underground tunnels? A secret space program and alien technology? What is your evidence for this?

nah I don't buy it, you hear estimates saying this gov or that gov has tech which is 50 years ahead etc, but that doesnt really make logical sense to me

obviously secret programs have a development cycle with a period of gestation, but how long is that period? maybe 10 year? maybe less?

I'd say what you see is roughly what we got

i think the gov. can cause natural disasters whenever and wherever they want! you gotta remember we have technology 20 yrs or so before we let anyone know about it!

natural disaster warfare and genocide is the best weapon b/c how do u prove it? EXACTLY!

reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX

No evidence, just the usual random quotes and testimonies that could be true.
I probably mis-stated, should have said "I see it as a possibility that we have..."
Manhattan project was a HUGE project, for example, kept under-wraps extremely well. One reason it was so easy to keep secret is the scope and idea of the project itsellf.
"Yo, im letting the public know the government is funding, and keeping secret, a project to create a super-bomb that could destroy an entire city!" back then, im not sure id have believed them either.
And how many years ahead of everyone else was this nuclear technology? How can one even guage this? Im writing on this website on my phone as I wait for an oil change. I wonder how far ahead in the future people thought I could be doing this back when the internet was created.
We landed on the moon back in the late 60's. I see it as entirely possible that space has been explored to a greater extent in secret since then.

The way I see it is that, as the previous poster said, what you see is what you have.

The F-22 IS the best fighter in existence at present and the B-2 is the best and most advanced bomber, for instance.

Why?

Because, not only is the idea of a govt spending billions of dollars, and several decades, on the development of 'so-called' advanced aircraft as a ruse to hide the existence of something even more advanced and capable utterly ridiculous, so too is the idea that the US Govt has developed some very secret and highly advanced weaponry AND NOT DEPLOYED IT. What would be the point? Especially when the US has a clearly defined enemy and US troops are dying every day.

The USA, in addition, is extremely rattled not only by Iran, but also by North Korea, and both are seen as extremely dangerous potential adversaries in the near/mid term.

IF the USA had advanced 'space age' weaponry, such as depicted by the regular TR-3B fantasies, what would be the problem?

Maybe some younger enthusiasts who frequent boards like these confuse weapons development programmes with actual, available hardware? Maybe?

More advanced and capable follow ups to the F-22 and B-2 are certainly in development, of that there can be no doubt, but to hear the talk on here sometimes people actually believe that there are squadrons of these aircraft already in existence but being kept secret.

If that were even possible, who is crewing and maintaining them? I once even saw a post that claimed that they were 'in storage' to be issued to the front line squadrons in the event of a war. Only one seconds thought is required to see what a stupid plan that would be

No, advanced weaponry takes a looong time to develop, and that timespan is getting ever longer. As an example, I know that the F-35 Lightning will not achieve IOC with the RAF until 2015 *at the earliest* and that even after that it will not be fully cleared to operate the RAF's most advanced weapons until 2022-24. The Typhoon was introduced to service in 2005 and is also not fully cleared will all the weapons that its predecessor, the Jaguar, was operational with.

The USA is not the UK of course, but the problems are the same, in the USA the dates will be a little earlier but the timespan will be about the same. What any 'pro-alien-tech-weapons' believer must ask themselves is; "If we are already 30-50 years in advance of this stuff, then what are we faffing around at?"

The answer, of course, is that 'we' are not. Believing in this stuff is no different to believing in Superman, or in my case Doctor Who

Originally posted by mooseinhisglory
reply to post by XxRagingxPandaxX

 

Manhattan project was a HUGE project, for example, kept under-wraps extremely well. One reason it was so easy to keep secret is the scope and idea of the project itsellf.
"Yo, im letting the public know the government is funding, and keeping secret, a project to create a super-bomb that could destroy an entire city!" back then, im not sure id have believed them either.

Sorry to burst your bubble but the development of nuclear weapons was reported in the British 'Flight' magazine around the time of the Battle of Britain, five years before the bomb was dropped. It was not nearly so secret as you seem to think, only the specific science was closely guarded, not the projects existence. Also, for a sense of perspective on these reports, this was published in the most stringently censored press in the world at the time, they even obtained stories about new British aircraft and performance figures from the USA and Germany (yes, I said Germany!) as the British Ministry was keeping them secret.

And how many years ahead of everyone else was this nuclear technology?

Not very much, if at all, as a large proportion of the scientists involved were from various countries of which the USA was only one, it was only after the end of the war when the USA decided it was NOT going to share its new toy with its allies after all that it became 'all-american'

Which all serves the point I was making in my previous post. We knew this was going on, just as we knew the F-22 and B-2 were being developed back in the 80's. long before they flew. There is a lot of romanticizing about previous 'secret projects' that doesn't stack up against simple research, or actual memory.

The scariest developments are the non-lethal technologies the can now scream at you till your eyes bleed,drop you with electrical charges paralysed,strobe you to give you an epileptic fit,pulse in false biorythms to upset heart and breathing functions etc etc

ive got vast experience of ufo crew visiting me, USUKUN govts know this and ive seen their military aircraft trying to get close to ufos near me. I've seen their large jet spy planes, euro fighters, streamlined skidless small black op helicopters, a search plane with ribbed wings (radar or heat detection) and many satellites passing through the sky near me. This is all of what usukun govts have in the areas of secret aircraft, if they had better theyd be using them near me so to try and shoot ufo crew out of the sky. govts will never get ufo technology, so i say govt aircraft are a complete pile of junk!
i dont know what weaponry they use, but id like to see a ufo down a govt aircraft, its about time they shot back in self defence

[edit on 4-7-2010 by thegreatestone]

reply to post by waynos

Waynos, as usual you make some very good points here I agree with however you make a few other points I dont so I will try and elaborate.

Originally posted by waynos
The F-22 IS the best fighter in existence at present and the B-2 is the best and most advanced bomber...

Agreed, in practical terms they are the best in there class because they are in real world service and there isn't anything better (in service). However it would also be technically true to say that neither the F-16 block 52/60 or F/A-18 E/F are the best in there class because there is the F-35 as well. BUT it isn't in service, is not built in practical numbers (yet?) and is not proven because we can't say (yet) what it can do so it doesn't count. That is analogous to a black program.

Originally posted by waynos
Because, not only is the idea of a govt spending billions of dollars, and several decades, on the development of 'so-called' advanced aircraft as a ruse to hide the existence of something even more advanced and capable utterly ridiculous, so too is the idea that the US Govt has developed some very secret and highly advanced weaponry AND NOT DEPLOYED IT. What would be the point? Especially when the US has a clearly defined enemy ...

Not necessarily, I agree that spending billions and taking decades to create a ruse for a more advanced program is quite impractical, but it does not rule out the existence of smaller scale advanced programs with much more limited production that are designed to "push the envelope". The fact that they have not (overtly) deployed such programs is not indicative of there total non-existence. I would further argue that the US does indeed not have a clearly defined enemy (which is part of it's fundamental failing in the Middle East and in dealing with the radical elements of the Islamic world) and certainly none worthy of deploying secret advanced aircraft systems (with the possible exception of ISR assets). In fact it's hard to justify even the use of some of the legacy systems such as the B-2 let alone the F-22 or maybe in the future the F-35 (which some in Washington would have you believe this aircraft is suited for).

Originally posted by waynos
The USA, in addition, is extremely rattled not only by Iran, but also by North Korea, and both are seen as extremely dangerous potential adversaries in the near/mid term.

IF the USA had advanced 'space age' weaponry, such as depicted by the regular TR-3B fantasies, what would be the problem?

The US is invariably rattled by someone all the time, thats the nature of being the top dog, you are always watching your back. It is also precisely why they would want to maintain a hefty technical lead in advanced combat and intelligence systems. The problem with having such an advanced 'space age' lead is you feel compelled to keep it under wraps lest someday you really need it so as not to give the game away and offer any clues to your potential foes.

Originally posted by waynos
Maybe some younger enthusiasts who frequent boards like these confuse weapons development programmes with actual, available hardware? Maybe?

Im in total and utter agreement with you there mate. Far to many pubescent posters are placing far too many fantasy(read:fake) postings on ATS in order to gain some form of online social onanists glory. Frankly it's one of the main reasons I have stopped contributing and I suspect many other respected posters as well and it should be curbed by the mods.

Originally posted by waynos
More advanced and capable follow ups to the F-22 and B-2 are certainly in development, of that there can be no doubt, but to hear the talk on here sometimes people actually believe that there are squadrons of these aircraft already in existence but being kept secret.

True, we agree that there are follow ups in development. However in terms of talk of secret squadrons I would remind you of the history of the F-117. A craft conceptualized, designed, tested, built and fielded in virtually the same secrecy as the supposed/legendary TR-3/Aurora. It was not built in large numbers because it wasn't meant to be, neither was the SR-71/A-12 family for that matter. It was a specialist "tip of the spear" weapon whose advanced signature reduction was meant to give the US an advanced technical advantage over Soviet/WarPac forces in the event of war. Once it's reason for existence was obviously failing post late 1980's it was brought out into the white world so it could more easily be used for more conventional lower scale conflicts which it did most convincingly.

Originally posted by waynos
If that were even possible, who is crewing and maintaining them? I once even saw a post that claimed that they were 'in storage' to be issued to the front line squadrons in the event of a war. Only one seconds thought is required to see what a stupid plan that would be

Again agreed it's simply not practical to fantasize about hundreds or thousands of secret stored aircraft. Thats just more of the silly kiddy talk rearing it's head. However it's not impractical to produce a small number of advanced concepts in a limited production run using a tightly controlled program that produces only a few dozen maybe never more than a hundred airframes that bypasses the usual bureaucracy and inefficiently run white world programs.

Remember that the 2011 black ops as reported by intelgurl a few days ago is some $57.8 billion. More than enough budget to cater for a few billion a year towards R&D and small scale rapid prototype and production techniques.

The problems you highlighted with advanced weapons taking longer to develop and field has as much or more to do with risk reduction(read: arse covering!), bad program management and graft/corruption than it has to do with difficulties of advanced technologies.

I agree that it's got nothing to do with alien weapon technologies or any of that self indulgent crap. But it does make sense to maintain a limited lead over your adversaries in R&D and limited production run techniques, and do it in secret.

However I must take offense at your trivializing of Superman and Dr Who. They are far more believable than some of the posts we now see on ATS. Our Gallifreyan friend would be most offended.

LEE.