Why does religion keep saying involuntary drives are sinful?

reply to post by halfoldman

I think you need to put the verse in context by considering the previous verse.

Matt 5:27-28

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
KJV


I think this applies to married men. Most wives will inflict Hell on their husbands for violating this rule. Are you saying they are wrong for being upset about this?

Just another perspective.

Peace

reply to post by Jordan River


Lies you say? Which statement was a lie in my post? Get ready to back up anything that you allege is a lie, otherwise you will look as silly as a talking donkey.

I'm all ears, and awaiting a reply...

----
Edit, DARN typos



[edit on 29-6-2010 by Baloney]

There is no 100% proof of anything. the bible, god or jesus. There is also no proof of the united states when you see it from space. So, could that be the same with your identity? How can I have proof. apparently you know more than I. I was speaking metaphorically. I was being sarcastic too. You have to think thing not so literal. that is where I was going

[edit on 29-6-2010 by Jordan River]

reply to post by Jordan River


Ok, I gotcha now.

I was just wondering about it, thats all.

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
reply to post by halfoldman

 

I think you need to put the verse in context by considering the previous verse.

Matt 5:27-28

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
KJV


I think this applies to married men. Most wives will inflict Hell on their husbands for violating this rule. Are you saying they are wrong for being upset about this?

Just another perspective.

Peace

Good point for married people - from the great bachelor in sky.
Biologically she (the wife) should not be upset.
I suppose she'd be really upset if he literally followed the next verse, Matt 5: 29-30, and he started blinding himself and cutting off his hands:

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off...

Taking this verse seriously will get you locked up as insane, but the rest of the divorce claptrap in Matthew is taken quite seriously.
Selective blindness, perhaps?

[edit on 29-6-2010 by halfoldman]

Originally posted by halfoldman
Jesus made this much worse in the New Testament, by this figure claiming that even "mental lust" was sinful. So, according to Jesus, even if you look at a woman in lust you have commited adultery in your heart. Hence, we find the first "thought crime", or being a sinner by simply being lustful.

i think perhaps we didn't get a clear idea in the words of what Jesus was really trying to introduce. i think the underlying principle he was conveying is the same as in my sig and what i've noticed several other ATSers declaring, in one way or another:
THOUGHTS ARE THINGS

maybe his audience related best to the idea of sin, so he presented it in that context. at any rate, surely it was merely an introduction to a concept that we're only getting a handle on, presently.

Therefore not all laws against unbridled lust are wrong, but religion takes nature and turns into sin.

especially when GOD repeatedly says:
Be Fruitful and Multiply!
hard to do without a certain degree of lust!
i think that love + lust = desire/passion
very human
very divine!

However, repeating the same advice over and over for decades implies they aren't conquering anything.
Far from being "new creations" after salvation, people are struggling with the same old addictions and behaviours.

exactly!!
and it's a damn shame that the self-appointed spokespersons for GOD don't even really accept themselves as being made in GOD's image and therefore perfect just as they are.

it also pretty much negates their favorite escape theology of a bloody death taking care of all their foibles.

why did Jesus die if they are still slaves to guilt and self-consciousness?

To me it seems that there is a conspiracy in Christianity (and possibly other faiths). It takes our natural drives, makes us feel guilty about them, and then offers to cure them by giving money and hearing repetative junk, while WE are made to feel ultimately responsible for any failures.

or at least they try to make us feel responsible.
but i don't.
the way i see it, we came here to fail.
because unless we fail several times, we will not reach the success stage!
depends on how you look at it: a burden that no one can lift or an opportunity to learn

ultimately, it's all about the same thing as every other flawed institution:
CONTROL of the masses through the subversion of the individual and self-image

So it appears that religion takes a natural drive, constrains it beyond acceptable biology, and once they have aroused people's guilt they use a carrot and stick approach to keep them hooked!

you're hitting the nail on the head, imo
that's why i don't do "church"
it's detrimental not only to my mental and emotional health but also undermines my relationship with GOD.
and i hate what i see it doing in our society, at large.

most western religions probably do this, to some degree. but christianity seems to be the most obvious and wide-spread. and therefore, the most damaging.

Al Pacino in "The Devil's Advocate":

John Milton: "Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, #in' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!"

religion is a tool used for some agendas

you can believe in god or whatever you want, just using your experience, researchs and ideas, and your belief is just as good guess as any freaking religion anyone can tell u

reply to post by halfoldman


Thought crime is very prevalent in Christianity. Just the idea that God is all knowing means he can read your thoughts. This idea was a constant source of guilt when I was Christian. As a teen going through puberty your thoughts often go to the opposite sex, to say that such natural process and fantasizing because of it is sin is to say that God seriously messed up when he designed the human mind.

I don't think that thought crime exists, any God who would damn a human being for involuntary urges, or even the simple act of fantasy, is an evil and sick being and certainly not worthy of anyone's adoration.

The idea of lust as sin is well founded, based on experience and history. Lust is the seed that comes to fruition by following up on the lust with action.

For a husband to constantly lust after another woman or sex with another woman...or man, will eventually be followed up by the actual act. Look at the stats or accounts of internet porn or chat rooms and personal websites and see the connection with broken marriages and infidelity.

Self control...control of the wants of the body....lusts, anger, diet, alcohol...control of these desires for the betterment of one's self. When any of these and other desires go unchecked...the result is damaging...not only to the "sinner" but to those around them...friends, family, loved ones.

Sex is not sinful.... unbridled sex is harmful and, in these times, even deadly. Same with alcohol... a little is fine... uninhibited,strong drink is damaging on so many levels. Excessive eating on occassion is ok...everyday and it will kill you. Cranking up a favorite song on occassion is fun, maxing out the volume on everytune and you won't hear well after a while... too much damage to the ear.

Self control...respect for your loved ones, family, respect for your self.

My doctor said eating fried chicken or a Whopper was not gonna kill me... just don't eat them everyday.

And since the OP was from a religious viewpoint, the Bible states that God wants us to enjoy the fruits of our labors and of life. Ecclesiastes clearly states as much at it's conclusion. But temperment...control is the key.

You want a burger..the really good ones with cheese and chilli and bacon...eat one. But don't do it everyday and then file a suit against McD's because you had to have a triple bypass.

here's a better detail of an answer to the title....i finally read the thread after seeing it days ago....i was out golfing this morning and God told me to type:...that reply by queen was close...but hear this truth.....
the tv show was spouting the catholic view on that one part...typical on this earth...they tend to be lawfully minded...did you know all judgement has been given to the Son...God does not judge.... so when t"the fornicators are leftr out".....that's not the believers....they are not judged they believed before they saw with their eyes. now this will get ya...it's possible that all will go to heaven becuase of Jesus. his sacrifice was twice enough for all souls. when it's written that the dogs and those who loved a lie are left outside the gates and not allowed to enter...that Jesus blood sacrifice will save them, from eternal separation, i don't know about which level of heaven will be allowed. there's more....this is writtten for all to read, i've read it for 50 years now, and i'm telling you, it's possible that Jesus sacrificing himself wil save all ( the evil one i'm sure about)( and his false profit)
so the answer to the title....it's not accounted as sin for a Jesus believer.

i'm typing in the dark on my side

[edit on 30-6-2010 by GBP/JPY]

reply to post by halfoldman

Originally posted by halfoldman

Originally posted by FearNoEvil
reply to post by halfoldman

 

I think you need to put the verse in context by considering the previous verse.

Matt 5:27-28

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
KJV


I think this applies to married men. Most wives will inflict Hell on their husbands for violating this rule. Are you saying they are wrong for being upset about this?

Just another perspective.

Peace

Good point for married people - from the great bachelor in sky.

Biologically she (the wife) should not be upset.
I suppose she'd be really upset if he literally followed the next verse, Matt 5: 29-30, and he started blinding himself and cutting off his hands:

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off...

Taking this verse seriously will get you locked up as insane, but the rest of the divorce claptrap in Matthew is taken quite seriously.
Selective blindness, perhaps?

[edit on 29-6-2010 by halfoldman]

I take all of Jesus teachings seriously. I’m not blind to their true meaning. I live in no more fear than you do. You probably think there is no such thing as sin. Are you against man’s laws? Man has made laws against things like murder and pedophilia. Do you think murder and pedophilia are not sin? What do you call them, crimes? Call them what you want but you know they will result in prison or execution. You obey laws made by man and you expect everyone else to obey them too. You respect man’s laws, I respect God’s laws – they are very similar and there are penalties for breaking both. Even your conscience tells you certain acts are immoral – if not, then you are blind.

I’ve noticed that most people that mock Christians are too embarrassed to admit what they actually believe about God and the afterlife. You get all kinds on here saying things like… aliens are god, man is god, the earth is god, the universe is god, Lucifer is god, the sun is god, etc. Why don’t you first tell us what you believe before you mock others beliefs?

Didn't read the topic or the OP so replying only to the title. I guess it's the same reason why things such as eating clam is a very big no no. Also cutting your hair from your temples can easily get you stoned and not in a good way. There is of course the bit that allows you to sell your daughter to slavery in tought times or take slave from neighbouring countries. What's the reason? I suspect it's because civilization was very young at the time of the writing. It's basically a book written by babies so I wouldn't put any faith on it

reply to post by PsykoOps

You probably already know this but... Christians live under NT not OT.

I don't think any of the things you mentioned are from the NT.

Peace

Yeah except that they just happen to pick that anti-gay sentiment from OT because it suits them. NT and OT same crap, different name.

The Church is quite Lustful in obtaining money!

I can see why it is important not to lust, but to experience the elevated pleasures of Endorphins or Hormones does not equate in my mind as lust; Lust must be something I have not experienced yet.

There is a sickness in the Church just as there is a sickness in the Political Machine, it is only likely that Consumerism is a Lust as well.

Desires and Lust, pleasures and addictions, power and control; each of these is confused as one thing. One can exist positively without the other, but the other cannot exist without its partner to shield it from absolute repulsion.

So Choice is still in our hands, those that cannot choose any longer are lost to the Lust.

reply to post by PsykoOps

No, that one IS in the NT

Rom 1:26-27

Significantly none of them appear in the Bible

Yes and no. There is not a "list" in the bible but the bible does mention these sins. The modern idea of the 7 deadly sins came from Evagrius Ponticus in the 4th century and were listed in greek. Latter they were put in the divine commedy.

In this passage are seven things that God hates: The phrase "an abomination," means the worst.
There are four sins of the tongue, and two mental attitude sins, and one overt sin.
1. "A PROUD LOOK."
This comes through the eye gate. This is a mental attitude sin of pride. Pride plus lust equals
jealousy. This is thinking pride, wicked imaginations.
2. "A LYING TONGUE." Lying here is a habitual liar. A sin of the tongue.
3. "HANDS THAT SHED INNOCENT BLOOD."
This is murder, killing is prohibited.
A. Exodus 20:13, "Thou shalt not kill," literally in the Hebrew it is, "Thou shalt not
murder."
4. "A HEART THAT DEVISETH WICKED IMAGINATIONS."
This is the mind controlled by the emotions and this is a mental attitude sin. This
is a mind filled with jealousy. Jealousy which breeds suspicion and suspicion thinks the
worst. The worst in the mind is the imagination.
5. "FEET THAT BE SWIFT IN RUNNING TO MISCHIEF."
This is a sin of the tongue and overt sin. This is a person going around making trouble.
Most trouble is caused by the use of the tongue, which involves gossip, resulting in overt sin,
making trouble for others.
6. "A FALSE WITNESS THAT SPEAKETH LIES."
This is another sin of the tongue: Perjury, downgrading someone. This is playing spiritual
king of the mountain.
7. "HE THAT SOWETH DISCORD AMONG THE BRETHREN."
Sin of the tongue, maligning.
www.divineviewpoint.com...
Budd

*There is more in Galatians 5:19-21

just like much of our concept of hell (which stems directly from the fantasy of Dante).

Hell is described in the bible which inspired Dante Alighieri's vision of hell, it is not like people believe the Divine commedy is part of the bible.

Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone

reply to post by halfoldman


being half alien half ape..when the natural desires kick in that is the animal part of you coming out so religion says its a sin b/c the alien side is saying that the animal instinct is acting as a dog!

so to try and separete us from the "dogs" they woudl rather think or believe we are above animal instincts b/c being created by the "gods" aliens! they woudl like to believe we are not as dogs!

"we are not slaves WE ARE LYCANS" lol had to say that

Once I had the desire to kill a man who stood in my way. Religion did not stop me. The law did not stop me. The only thing that stopped me was my moral code. Some people do not have a moral code and need religion to tell them what is right and what is wrong. Religion is a good thing in this situation.