So my Iraq/Afghan war veteran good friend just killed himself.....

And to back up my statements further, I know several people that have went to war. They broke their silence and I was informed of what happens. Don't act like murder doesn't happen.

You don't possess a mind of your own. You are property of the US Military until the day that you die.

reply to post by The_Zomar


PTSD can be caused by a whole plethora of things...up to and including murder. What many are having an issue with is your blanket assumption that the OP's friend had some reason to feel guilty, and that being guilty of whatever was the cause of his committing suicide.

That's certainly where my issue comes from. You've not the vaguest notion what that gentleman did, or didn't do... You didn't know him...yet you make some stupid blanket assumption and crack about it in a post.

Truthfully, I've no doubt you're young, and haven't the life experiences that some of the rest of us have. Otherwise you'd know that such blanket, and smug, assumptions are generally wrong. They certainly are in your case.

reply to post by The_Zomar


Interesting, and brash assumptions......

I did 3 tours over in the big sand box as a grunt in the Corps. Never once was I asked to fire on civilians or murder children. You my friend have no idea what you are talking about.

A lot of times what tends to happen however is that now days, in our sheltered and protected society of young men and women......when they are sent to war, their minds cannot handle the things that they see or experience..

Americans have lost their grit and their nerve, well a lot have.....and when they come home they are tormented.

I saw many horrifying things, I watched brothers fall, I watched insurgence blow up market places killing and maiming women and children, i watched mothers cry out for their sons and daughters, knowing full well they would never get to touch them or hear their voices again...

War is hell, plain and simple, and some people just cannot handle it. Its not their fault, its just the way it is, and in a way this society that we have now days where people have this sense of entitlement and ego, we have fostered this to our own downfall......

This young soldier probably did suffer from PTSD, just some people never come back from it. While others look back on what happened and realize its war, and this is what happens......and you move on from one day to the next.

You conduct yourself with Honor and humility, and move on......

Condolences to the OP, and then to all war vets reading this.

First off, I am an insignificant nobody, but would like to share an insight with you, should you after reading this thread or before had been having such thoughts as the OP's friends. May he be the last of such acts from your precious young.

Being young and adventurous, it is only natural to seek for the adrenaline high, more so that is presumed 'legal' and countenance by support from public for wars against presumed enemies.

But the reality sinks in once the bullets fly, when you see your buddies' guts spilling out, as well as your enemies as you recon the kill zone. You had killed. It is not a natural instinct, more so after centuries of civilisational efforts.

The guilt comes, and worse if you realized it had been innocent civilians you had mowed down, justified by so call 'collatoral dammage'. As the bodies pile up, so too does that sense of guilt. And only those whom woke up will feel remorse, not those whom are delusional and use all kinds of justification for the murder of his fellow humans to erase that common human guilt.

However, should you feel remorse, then the only true justification that can only help you on the path of redemption is that you had been manipulated by others, whom had used you for their insidious agenda of greed and power.

I would say the same to not only you, the western soldier, but to our fellow humans from the muslim faith whom the current war is raging in Iraq and Afghan. All of us are brothers. We are humans and aspire the same. It is only differences set up by our manipulators that ultmately set us far apart, far enough for we brother to kill brother.

Unfortunately, the war in Afghan cannot be cut yet and mess created cannot wind down immediately and would need a modicum of stability before all can go home.

You as a soldier had done the nation proud, not because of the war and the killings, but by your steadfast obedience to do the right thing, with the belief in doing the right thing, even though having been manipulated.

Take care of yourself, and make sure you protect your buddies and yourself. It is either you or the 'enemy', as our fellow brothers on the other side will be warned, as all had been manipulated into a do or die situation.

You are no lesser being for defending yourself, or had been misled into killing your brother, just as the iraqi and afghans had been, so long as you feel remorse now. The war will end, and in the meantime, do what you must do to protect yourself and your buddies, as well as the truly innocent civilians.

When you come home, seek for peace and do not allow the memories of war destroy you. Your life is precious, if not to humanity but to yourself.

It is a gift. And your fellow humans need you alive to help fulfill our destiny to take to the stars, if not this generation, then help the next generations to achieve it. There is a lofty goal that awaits all humanity, that the NWO is hellbent on preventing us reaching out of their greed.

May this help you get out of the twilight zone created by our masters. I know because I had been there too and took years to get out on my own.

Good luck, and cheers.

reply to post by The_Zomar


The Zomar…..

Maybe, - but I'm not here to troll or hurt anyone's feelings.

Unfortunately, you have achieved the latter & possibly the former.

I'm also not here to coddle anyone.

You have patronized them.

People just don't see things the way I do.

People have more knowledge, experience & wisdom than you do.

How is the war in Afghanistan helping the American people?

This question shows your lack of knowledge & experience. Please look into this topic more deeply.

How is the war helping the citizens of Afghanistan?

This question shows your lack of knowledge & experience. Please look into this topic more deeply.

We all know that more children and innocent civilians die than actual terrorists. It's a fact.

Unfortunately, it is probably true that ”more children and innocent civilians die than actual terrorists”.

However, that comparison is obfuscatious & possibly disingenuous.

Wikileaks is targeted by the government for leaking a video of one of our massacres.

That is true.

The soldiers laugh and froth at the mouth practically at the chance to shred colored people with their guns "bravely" hidden away in a helicopter.

That is a misrepresentation of that video.

Men were men before they were soldiers.

You are really stating an opinion that “soldiers are not men”.

Once again, you patronize. You also insult.

They can find a job doing anything but usually it's high-school screw-ups that join the military.

Your sentence is an oxymoron.

I also note the gentleman about whom I wrote is a high academic achiever who has 4 university degrees.

People need to stop looking for an easy way out

That you write being in the military is ”an easy way out” again demonstrates your lack of knowledge & experience.

following family tradition, or whatever the case is.

Your flippant comment pertaining to ”family” again demonstrates your lack of knowledge & experience.

If you want to be a real patriot you would absolutely refuse a job in the military.

You continue to insult.

Notice I didn't say career.

You continue to insult.

These wars are ridiculous

Almost all would agree.

anyone who supports them are ignorant fools.

Can you see how your above 2 comments can be mutually exclusive?

You can hate me

That is an immature assertion.

for laying out the truth

You have not been ”laying out the truth”

but then I would ask you to publicly admit to being a hypocrite for the reason that you access this website in the search of truth but strike it down when you find it.

”I would ask you to publicly admit to being a hypocrite for the reason that you access this website in the search of truth but strike it down when you find it”.

Our wars have killed over a million people. One million people. Do you think the world is safer now?

You need to read more deeply & gain an understanding of what is going on around you & why.

Kind regards
Maybe…maybe not

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by The_Zomar

 

PTSD can be caused by a whole plethora of things...up to and including murder. What many are having an issue with is your blanket assumption that the OP's friend had some reason to feel guilty, and that being guilty of whatever was the cause of his committing suicide.

That's certainly where my issue comes from. You've not the vaguest notion what that gentleman did, or didn't do... You didn't know him...yet you make some stupid blanket assumption and crack about it in a post.

Truthfully, I've no doubt you're young, and haven't the life experiences that some of the rest of us have. Otherwise you'd know that such blanket, and smug, assumptions are generally wrong. They certainly are in your case.

No-one will know why he took his life. Not me, not you.

It could have been financial reasons, relationship problems, or what I mentioned in my first post.
It is my personal opinion that the latter of those is the answer. It is your opinion that it is not.

The only person that may have any inside information at all, would be the OP.

Bringing up my age leads me to believe that you have nothing useful to say, and that you are grasping at straws.

I came to this thread, I replied with my opinion, and the thread turns to military grunts attacking my post. Lovely.

I'll continue believing what I believe.,
You can continue believing whatever the military tells you to.

reply to post by Maybe...maybe not


I've read. I know the subject at hand. Your argument is frivolous because you are comparing my opinions to a story made up by the government and MSM.

The wars are not benefiting the average American. They are not helping the citizens of Afghanistan.

Keep your rash stories and media nonsense to yourself. Continue believing that Osama is hiding under your bed.

reply to post by The_Zomar


why not? Youre spouting the MSM line that all military personnel are brainwashed, uneducated , low income failures, who cant do anything but tow the military line and cant think for themselves?

Espousing all of the baby killer references.....


A little hypocritical dont you think?

reply to post by The_Zomar

No-one will know why he took his life. Not me, not you.

Your first post certainly said otherwise... Then you proceed to compound your error with generalizations about both the war in Afghanistan, and the military fighting there, that are, in very large part, untrue.

As for my commentary on your youth? Wasn't meant as a crack...I simply believe, due to it, you've not got the life experiences that many of us, who are a bit older, or lots; might have. If I've in any way offended you by referencing to your age, you've my apology.


[edit on 6/28/2010 by seagull]

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
reply to post by The_Zomar

 

why not? Youre spouting the MSM line that all military personnel are brainwashed, uneducated , low income failures, who cant do anything but tow the military line and cant think for themselves?

Espousing all of the baby killer references.....


A little hypocritical dont you think?

Very curious to know what news station you are watching.

reply to post by seagull


Yes, but you continue to assume that older folk have experienced more than me. You have as much knowledge of my experiences as both of us have knowledge of why the OP's friend (remember that guy that used to be the subject of this thread until I posted my opinion?) took his life.

What did I say about the Middle East that wasn't true?

I said innocent people are murdered, even more so than the terrorists we are supposedly there to kill. I said the wars are not benefitting the average man. My statements are 100% true.

[edit on 28-6-2010 by The_Zomar]

reply to post by The_Zomar


The bottom line here is that a person came here to express his grief, get a little support, and you have hijacked, derailed, and in all other ways turned this into a thread about you and what your beliefs are. If you want that much attention, start your own thread where you rail against war and what you believe. It is just impolite to do what you have done here.

Originally posted by The_Zomar

Nenothtu, I don't care what you call it. I don't care what the military calls it. Ending someone's life is murder.

Yeah, I've run into your kind before, over the years. Folks that think they can make up their own dictionary and I have to live by it. Your the same kind that make good men question themselves and fall off the edge. I have no patience for your kind. Go see the elephant yourself, then come back and preach at me. Anything else is just being a coward and a poser.

I'll listen to your definitions when you've earned the right to tell them. Until then, I'll get my definitions from a dictionary, or cold hard experience.

Neither of which, I suspect, you are acquainted with.

Originally posted by samsamm9

There has been some misunderstanding I think.

I did not mean to sound insensitive with my "Karma" comment,

I was trying to make a point. KARMA is real.

your earlier post ... came off as a little insensitive to me.
but, i must concede, my perspective differs from yours, perhaps.
i thank you for your clarification. ATSers are enduring a learning and sharing experience, and i too author some posts that at times may seem insensitive to others.

feel free to check my "Respected Foes" list after 5 years on ATS.
there is only one name there.

there are two types of people, sometimes.....

those who adore and worship us, and those who don't know us, yet.
don't take peoples "retaliation" as personal attacks on your character or you. they are merely attempts to peturb certain actions and behaviors, intentionalities, and adapt ATSers to a more fruitfull interchange of communications.

Don't you understand, no matter how honorable you are, ...[snip] .... your Own Conscience would/will not tolerate it ?

are you speaking from experience, what you have been led to believe, or a mixture of both? and are you utilizing your conscience when you post your/my/our posts? (rhetorical question)

Just my humble opinion again, the only way to heal terrible wounds like

these is by Understanding and Forgiveness.


Peace is not the opposite of war, but the opposite of fear.

we may not agree on what the opposite of fear is. and just like there are different types of loves, there are different types of peace, different types of wars, and different types of fear.

sometimes war may be a neccesity. sometimes. and the art of claiming the moral and ethical highground is not what is defined by what is chosen to include in textbooks, nor by popular opinion.

headline
Do you know there is a name for those who always stand on the sidelines and claim that they are "too intelligent to participate in war".

they don't fight their own fights, & are willing to not fight while others fight for their right to not fight. and according to their conscience, this is right?

PASS A FIST = PACIFIST


yep yep,
ET

[edit on 28-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not
reply to post by The_Zomar

 

The Zomar…..

Maybe, - but I'm not here to troll or hurt anyone's feelings.

Unfortunately, you have achieved the latter & possibly the former.

yes. he belittles a death, and an entire life. one he didn't know, and tells us with some level of authority what happens in war, drawing on no known experience of it himself. rather, the substantiation he offers is ...

I'm also not here to coddle anyone.

You have patronized them.

yes, he has patronized a patriot. not too patriotic.

People just don't see things the way I do.

People have more knowledge, experience & wisdom than you do.

he is about to get some....

How is the war in Afghanistan helping the American people?

This question shows your lack of knowledge & experience. Please look into this topic more deeply.

please you ask Maybe...maybe not
i'm slightly envious of your measure of self control "Maybe".

How is the war helping the citizens of Afghanistan?

This question shows your lack of knowledge & experience. Please look into this topic more deeply.

ZOMAR said:
We all know that more children and innocent civilians die than actual terrorists. It's a fact.

here is a fact for you ZOMAR,
fit this into your opinion maker and see what gets kicked back, since you are a self proclaimed knower of what war is and what it is about...

zomar,
what does that say under your avatar name?

here is a fact:
the following phrases have everything in common.
the following phrases have the same ingredients.
the following phrases have the same exact letters:

Moron, A Superconductives' Solutions!
Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordos Seclorum
On Apes' Code: Voluminous Instructors

End Transmission,
ET


[edit on 28-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

I share 99.7+% of the same identical dna as a primate named Zomar…

Originally posted by The_Zomar

No-one will know why he took his life. Not me, not you.

Zomar posted on 28-6-2010 @ 03:49 PM

Originally posted by The_Zomar

I've read. I know the subject at hand. Your argument is frivolous because...

Zomar posted on 28-6-2010 @ 03:58 PM

Wow. In less than 10 minutes time your lie seems to flip flop.
Do you not see any contradiction in your logic?

As for your “osama under your bed comment” in relations to “this war is not helpful for any America or Afghanistan” stance…

Two phrases, identical ingredients:
Usama Bin Laden
Mainland Abuse

And remember:
Moron, A Superconductives’ Solutions
Annuit Coeptis Novus Ordos Seclorum
On Apes' Code: Voluminous Instructors

humanzees, they can type too.

choose your words more carefully, please.
from my point of view some comments made on this thread is the equivelant of urinating on the face of someone while they lie in their caskit, in front of their family.

i thought my first post on this thread would have had some effect on this kind of rhetoric. or i will unleash my Magniloquences.


End Transmission,
ET


[edit on 28-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

My condolences to the family and friends. I wish we could bring them all home and stop this insanity!

let us lighten the mood a little bit shall we?

i'm going to share a true life war story.

We were stationed at a base in one of those counties above afghanistan that also is ends in "stan". a fellow firefighter and friend of mine.

he really wanted some KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken), something we hadn't tasted in over 4 months, and he loved kentucky fried chicken.

we were not permitted to leave base, as our firefighting duties & protocols did not permit us to leave the base. we worked and were on duty 24/7.

so, he paid a TCN (third country national) $40 to get him some chicken. (*which was more than the TCN made in a month). the TCNs could leave base and come back, and lived in a nearby village/town.

the next day we were out drilling in an excersize, and when we returned to the fire station the TCN was there to great us. he took us into our bunk rooms (where our cots were) ....

and there, tied to his cot that was being dragged around, where 3 scrawny live chickens.

the look on my friends face was hillarious. i think his request may have been lost in translation.

my friend explained to him that he wanted something like Kentucky Fried Chicken, and the TCN replied: " Forty Dollars isn't enough to get me to Kentucky and back."

true story.
ET

[edit on 28-6-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

OP
I am very sorry to hear of your friends death. I can understand how you feel in one way. My mom also committed suicide. "Why" is a very important question to most people who have a suicide in the family or by a close friend.

We make bad decisions every day. So far we have recoverd from most of them, or we are working on it. Suicide doesn't give second chances. It was just a bad day and a bad decision and now you have to live with the bad time - but after the grief, you will heal.
Suicide happens in steps. First is spiritual suicide, you decide you are all there is, or attach yourself to a hopeless belief.
Second is mental suicide. This happens to people who turn to drugs or alcohol, but it is not being able to stand being alone with yourself. You're not at ease with your own thoughts.
Third is emotional. If you decided to never let anything hurt you agian, you have unwittingly decided not to let anything make you happy again either. Then you hit an emotional wateland where nothing is meaningful to you.
And last in line is physical suicide.

Lastly I would advise you to find the "IGNORE" button on The_Zomar
posts and use it. You don't need that aggravation right now.

Remember your friend and be glad for the time you had him, the later learn from his mistake and better yourself.

reply to post by The_Zomar


Is it compulsory to join the Military in your country?
If not, then I would suggest that the lesson here is that, if you choose death as an occupation, then don't complain, for death is what you shall attract.

I feel for his friends and family but come on, it's 2010. Time to move on. Time to be civilised. We are all one family, Sand'n-word's, Gringoes, Spic's, Krauts, Paki's, even Yanks...

Wake up, face it. Guns are for weaklings. Move on...