So my Iraq/Afghan war veteran good friend just killed himself.....

There has been some misunderstanding I think.

I did not mean to sound insensitive with my "Karma" comment,

I was trying to make a point. KARMA is real.


Don't you understand, no matter how honorable you are, by participating

in wars where millions of Innocent civilians (Sand N***** as

Alaskan's friend calls them) died, your Own Conscience would/will not

tolerate it ?

For the people who don't know what a Conscience is, do a Wiki search....


Just my humble opinion again, the only way to heal terrible wounds like

these is by Understanding and Forgiveness.


Peace is not the opposite of war, but the opposite of fear.

reply to post by samsamm9


Guilt as the reason that combat veterans kill themselves, have PTSD and other issues keeps coming up as the reason..... The idea that guilt is a result of committing an atrocious act is seldom the case for a person to feel guilt.... War is an atrocity and that is easily accepted by people that have been exposed and participated as combatants..... War is about killing or being killed and there is guilt but it seldom has to do with killing but is almost always associated with simply being a survivor..... There is no joy for a person that has faced death time and again with people being killed over and over during a long tour of duty and continuing to be killed over and again in thoughts and dreams that come out of no where for no reason being triggered by something unidentifiable and with the same intensity and horror as the experiences themselves..... This topic is something that I have personal experience with and know about first hand on an almost daily basis going on 42 years.... Just quit playing the guessing games and accept what I am saying instead of trying to blame the persons that were conned into believing what they were told they were needed to do for the benefit and well being of his or her people..... Realize that a person feels extreme guilt because people died on all sides innocent and otherwise and they didn't and that is all they are guilty of doing.

I am very sorry for your loss. Who knows what causes so many mental health problems for vets? Maybe a predisposition to these problems exists in those who wish to join the military?

reply to post by earthdude

If the people that join are predisposed to having PTSD and suffering from survivors guilt then how do you explain all of the mental health casualties amongst the 67% of the service men during WW2 that were drafted even though they saw far less combat on a daily basis as those in Vietnam and even a lesser amount than those that are now serving in the Middle East.....
How do you explain the fire fighters that survived the 9-11 that are emotionally disabled or the workers in the buildings that got out and their state of being since their one intense day of horror compared to the day in day out exposure that is suffered by a military combatant????

reply to post by dominicus


Man what an awful event.
My heart goes out to you.
He must have seen some terrible things while serving.
Awful shock for his family and friends, for you must have thought he had managed to survive the war,and so was safe.
I hope he has found peace.

You know, you try to make this out as if it must have been some exterior force that did this to him.

While I'm sure the variety of environmental hazards and chemical hazards through experimentation they go through may effect them to a degree, the real fact is that what they are doing over there is absolutely heinous. Many know this. Many have spoken out on this.

If I remember correctly, I think the deaths from suicides from veterans is even higher than the actual death toll over there. And these men and women are casualties of war. Because what is causing their suicides, is there haunting subconscious. It isn't just their allies being killed but what they are doing to the civilian population. It's screwing with them.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
He probably killed himself because he had to live with the thought of killing innocent children in the middle east. Who *could* murder innocent children and live on with their lives?

Meh, if I saw a kid come at me with what looked to be a bomb strapped to his chest ( or underneath his shirt) I wouldn't think twice about unloading a magazine into his tiny little ass, especially if I heard about similar encounters occurring to other platoons.

War is war. This isn't a feel-good love fest where only the "bad guys" get hurt. Accidents happen, civilians get lit up. You live with that or you shouldn't be in the military.

One of the insurmountable pains of being survivor of a loved-ones suicide is all the questions we'll never have answered.

All the 'what ifs' the will follow you around for the rest of your life.

It's worse than torture at times - torture at least, at some point goes away, or kills you, (where presumably your questions would be answered)...

Try not to beat yourself up over the loss of your friend.
Have strength and continue to wish (pray) him on to a better place.

I hope you and the others involved can find some measure of peace, soon.

Those poor kids...

peace

[edit on 28-6-2010 by silo13]

Originally posted by Maybe...maybe not

Originally posted by The_Zomar
He probably killed himself because he had to live with the thought of killing innocent children in the middle east. Who *could* murder innocent children and live on with their lives?

The Zomar.....

That's just a damned awful reply.

Sincerely
Maybe...maybe not

Maybe, - but I'm not here to troll or hurt anyone's feelings. I'm also not here to coddle anyone. People just don't see things the way I do. How is the war in Afghanistan helping the American people? How is the war helping the citizens of Afghanistan?

We all know that more children and innocent civilians die than actual terrorists. It's a fact. Wikileaks is targeted by the government for leaking a video of one of our massacres. The soldiers laugh and froth at the mouth practically at the chance to shred colored people with their guns "bravely" hidden away in a helicopter.

Men were men before they were soldiers. They can find a job doing anything, but usually it's high-school screw-ups that join the military.
People need to stop looking for an easy way out, following family tradition, or whatever the case is. If you want to be a real patriot you would absolutely refuse a job in the military. Notice I didn't say career.

These wars are ridiculous, anyone who supports them are ignorant fools.

You can hate me for laying out the truth, but then I would ask you to publicly admit to being a hypocrite for the reason that you access this website in the search of truth but strike it down when you find it.

Our wars have killed over a million people. One million people.

Do you think the world is safer now?

Originally posted by WolfofWar

Originally posted by The_Zomar
He probably killed himself because he had to live with the thought of killing innocent children in the middle east. Who *could* murder innocent children and live on with their lives?

Meh, if I saw a kid come at me with what looked to be a bomb strapped to his chest ( or underneath his shirt) I wouldn't think twice about unloading a magazine into his tiny little ass, especially if I heard about similar encounters occurring to other platoons.

War is war. This isn't a feel-good love fest where only the "bad guys" get hurt. Accidents happen, civilians get lit up. You live with that or you shouldn't be in the military.

If you were invading my country I'd try my best to kill you too.

reply to post by The_Zomar


Yup. So there are no innocents here. There are people who surrendered and try to stay out of our way, and there are those who are fighting. Soldiers just don't go shooting at people willy-nilly (most...keyword...most....) but you know stuff happens. It's a natural side-effect of war, a side-effect that we have gotten a lot better at limiting. You knew what you signed up for when they asked you to join the military, this isn't something new. It's not like people were drafted from the Goodwill to go into Iraq here. You were hired to kill things that move, preferably things with big guns.

Originally posted by The_Zomar

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by The_Zomar
He probably killed himself because he had to live with the thought of killing innocent children in the middle east. Who *could* murder innocent children and live on with their lives?

What are you like 5?
Go play with your X-Box/dolls while the adults talk at the grown up table.

Irrelevant post.

The fact is that people do suffer from PTSD when returning from murdering people on battlefields. They don't develop PTSD from being claustrophobic.

This is the real world, not your imagination. Or whomever's imagination you let mould your mind.

Educate me about PTSD, son. Please do. What is it you said causes it again?

WRONG. How 'bout you educate yourself before attempting to educate the rest of us, since there may be those here who are acutely aware of what an ass you make of yourself by spouting out unfounded assumptions.

PTSD has nary a damned thing to do with 'murder' (which you apparently can't define, either) or battlefields. Neither of those has to factor in at all. It's about the aftermath of trauma.

You got NO business lecturing grownups about 'the real world'.

reply to post by The_Zomar


This link is for you. Since it's fairly obvious you've no knowledge of just what Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is...

It's wiki, but it's a place to start in the furtherance of your education on the topic of PTSD, and it's associated problems...

PTSD

My father was encouraged to retire from the Air Force because of PTSD related directly to his serving in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and during the height of the Cold War. I've a friend who survived the Killing Fields of Cambodia. Do you know the "crime" he was guilty of? No, how could you? He was a teacher, educated at Cambridge. He speaks 5 languages. What was he guilty of? His PTSD is directly related to having to dig out of the mass grave that contained his wife and kids... Tell me again about guilt.

PTSD related episodes are horrifying to witness, how much worse to have to live with them?

reply to post by The_Zomar


The Zomar you are entitled to your opinion but the way you expressed it was childish and immature.

The OP has just lost a very good friend and is hurting and looking for answers and support. There is alot of experience on these boards so maybe shut it and learn something.

Your comment may of been justified in some other thread but in this one it was just plain rude and small minded. Dont try and justify it with some excuse ridden rant.

Sorry for your loss OP.

The horrid truth about this is that your friend showed how much of an intelligent and decent person he is by not being able to cope with the horrors of war.

There is no shame in that IMO.
It just shows he was a good man,troubled by what his country asked of him.

May he rest in peace.

And may we one day see the politicians on the front line of war.
that would put a stop to it in short order I bet.

Humans feel good when we help one another IMO.
War is no good for anyone but the evil profiteers.
We must change the game,to stop people like your friend dying needlessly.

reply to post by The_Zomar


Do you have any evidence that this individual committed the crimes you accuse him of?

Is it not irresponsible to interject your prejudices into a discussion regarding the unfortunate trial that the OP is experiencing now?

Have you no restraint or even a modicum of empathy or decorum?

What a pitiable condition.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Maybe, - but I'm not here to troll or hurt anyone's feelings. I'm also not here to coddle anyone. People just don't see things the way I do. How is the war in Afghanistan helping the American people? How is the war helping the citizens of Afghanistan?

Well, I believe that. Mainly because I've actually been in combat, and you haven't. That's why I see things different than you and can actually participate in this conversation from a position of knowing, and not just speculation.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
We all know that more children and innocent civilians die than actual terrorists. It's a fact. Wikileaks is targeted by the government for leaking a video of one of our massacres. The soldiers laugh and froth at the mouth practically at the chance to shred colored people with their guns "bravely" hidden away in a helicopter.

A lot of innocents are killed. You do any ranting and raving when the insurgents kill a bunch of women and kids at a market, or just save that for US troops?

And they aren't laughing to shread "colored people". You can take the race card and firmly plant that in your fourth point of contact. Wonder what you'd say if those gunship pilots turned out to be blacks?

And it is brave to be in a helicopter. Over a million moving parts made by the lowest bidder, and you're being shot at at the same time, too.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Men were men before they were soldiers. They can find a job doing anything, but usually it's high-school screw-ups that join the military.

Blacks are great basketball players. Latinos are all wetbacks. Asians can't drive cars and have a camera fetish. I mean, if you're going to believe the stereotype that all guys that join the service are "high school screwups" or poor, you might as well believe them all.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
People need to stop looking for an easy way out, following family tradition, or whatever the case is. If you want to be a real patriot you would absolutely refuse a job in the military. Notice I didn't say career.

If I wanted an easy job, I'd have gone to work at Mickey Ds with you. Instead, I joined the military. I can't remember when my last "easy day" was.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
You can hate me for laying out the truth, but then I would ask you to publicly admit to being a hypocrite for the reason that you access this website in the search of truth but strike it down when you find it.

So, you believe what you're saying is the truth, and everyone else on this thread is lying? You aren't speaking the truth, you're talking smack.

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Our wars have killed over a million people. One million people.

"Our wars"? Hmmmm....and where are you starting this time line? And a million people, huh? Got a source for that, since I'm curious where we are hiding 1,000,000 bodies.

My sincere condolences. I will pray for his soul to find peace. So many have committed suicide... not only in the States but among the forces of the other nations involved.

TPTB intend to use up these young men and women and intend that they should die of disease or kill themselves so that they present no possible threat against the regime.

So much evil unleashed by USAmerican hubris... and who pays the price, the ordinary, decent patriotic working people of the USA (not to mention the honest ordinary people of other nations who get in the way of "American" objectives for the 'homeland'.

reply to post by The_Zomar


Troll much ?

Regards
Lee

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by The_Zomar
Our wars have killed over a million people. One million people.

"Our wars"? Hmmmm....and where are you starting this time line? And a million people, huh? Got a source for that, since I'm curious where we are hiding 1,000,000 bodies.

Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12–19, 2007 estimated 1,033,000 violent deaths due to the Iraq war alone. That does not include any deaths in Afghanistan. So apparently you're hiding them in the desert. The same place you left your decency.

I have never worked at "Micky D's". You're guessing I'm some uneducated youth undercooking fries. trolling on political boards in the downtime.

Actually my first job was at a Library. Now I design company identities, logos, and concept designs for small and large businesses. Ivy Tech Community Colleges of Indiana, LG, and University of Utah, to name a few.

Theres too many posts to reply to calling me a troll or whatever. The fact is our wars are not helping either side. They are only making the rich richer, and by participating in them you are only bringing agony to yourself (such as the OP's friend), and others.

I do feel for the OP's friend. I am not emotionless. I simply tried to say that it is a result of war, and that our wars are senseless. It could have been prevented.

I can't believe a couple of you think that PTSD cannot be caused by murder.

Nenothtu, I don't care what you call it. I don't care what the military calls it. Ending someone's life is murder.


I can see that military brainwashing is up to par. Good job guys.