Do Christians really worship the sun?

The word "Church" comes from the Goddess "Circe" (Pronouned Sir-Cee)
which is where we get the word "Circle" or "Circus". She is known for getting men
drunk on her wine (her religion) and turning them into swine. In Scottish, it is pronounced "Kirk".

First of all, in ancient times, there were certain things which obviously
mystified the early people and the were certain apparent features of the landscape
which were difficult to ignore.
mytddhology
1. The Sun : A little difficult to ignore, don't you think. If the sun, which is the
source of all life fails to come up the next morning the ancient people would not have lived long and they knew this. The Sun invigorates you with it's energy and
causes the crops to grow. The Sun gives up it's life force to provide us with
warmth and food and many other things. So it could be said that the Sun of God
gives it's life up for US and it is the TRUE SAVIOR for it has risen-"Risen Savior"
When the ancient people would track the Sun on the "Sun dial", as it still does
today, the Sun traveles South until the Winter Solstice when it cold and harsh,
representing death and the Sun would stop "ON THE SUN DIAL FOR THREE
DAYS and on December 25th, the Sun would be said "To be BORN AGAIN" on
the CROSS OF THE ZODIAC" after having died for three days. This is when the
Sun begins it's annual journey back to the Northern Hemisphere.

The Ancient calender also started at a different time. It began in Virgo and ended
in leo, that is why the Sphynx has the head of a Virgin and the Body of a Lion.
When the Sun of God was re-born, it was in the Constellation of Virgo, so it was
said "Born of a Virgin". The Sun is the "Eye of God" or "Eye of Horus". Ra was
the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men"
after our prayers. The Egyptians knew this and all of the Egyptian beliefs and
customs are built into our society secretly by the Freemasons.

The Origin of the Trinity, the father, the sun, and the holy spirit. Horus comes up
at the "Hor-izon". He is born, this is the beginning, 12:00 he is the "Most High",
and then the Sun "Sets", hence "Set" or "Satan", the prince of darkness does battle with the light of the world and wins, until the Sun is re-born the next day. This is
a representation of the evolution of life. The birth, or the beginning, mid-life
starting in your teen years, and old age, leading to death, the end of life. This is
also symbolized in other religions going very far back. In India, there is Brahma,
the Father, Vishnu, the Son, and Shiva.

Came from this site

I was reading through old post and came across this site which was originally posted by bigsage (link). I realize that his is a religious conspiracy form, but it seems that most of the members that post here to try to prove to others that there religion/beliefs are infallible. But it seems to me that all religions have a universality about them, meaning that they all have some truth to them.

From the information above you can see that Institutiolized Christianity is just a cover for sun worship. I mean the facts are there, December 25th being the birth of Christ( this is really the birth of the sun God Romans and egyptians used to worship), Christ being the �sun� of God, Continene (who was a sun worshiper that had a dream of a cross and a voice said �under this you will rule�) having a change of heart and converting to Christianity, this list goes on and on.

I see a lot of hate toward Islam theses days. But thoses who are true followers know that they must be tolerant of others but only if they tolerant to them. Now there are fanatics in every religion so to judge Islam based on suicide idiots is just showing how closed minded you are. Any of the arguments against Islam can also be said for Christianity too(remember it has a longer and bloodier history).

Now I�m not here to bash anyone�s beliefs. I just want people to see that God is greater than this puny planet we call earth and that organized religion is an institution created by man to try and understand God. But mostly it helps to keep people under control because if every person was taught and allowed to grow spirituality the system that is in place now would collapse. Money is truly the root of all evil and it is keeping the beings on this planet from helping the next generation break out of the cycle of hate, geed and materialism. I think that the first step is to teach tolerance. Then and only then will we be able to move on as a race.

The sun is an interpretation of the Christ often surrounded by light "the divine light" Also In eygpt Ra was at the birth of Amut ( I think) Ra came up with the sun and looked as Amut was created from the soil of the Nile. I guess the Sun is a metaphor. But then again Christianity is basicly the same thing as Egyptian religion even in its beliefs.

I find it funny how many christians are so quick to point out "fallcy" in other religions but when it comes to there own they pick and choose what to believe.

Many pagan ideas have been incorporated into mainstream Christianity, many of them by the Catholic church.

I'm not Christian, I don't worship the sun, but I do talk to the moon because I think God chill's up there at night when he's bored.

I know that sounded sarcastic and off topic, but I'm actually serious.

The worship of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean as the long awaited King Messiah ben-David ("Jeeezuzz" was put to death during the reign of Tiberius for armed sedition against Rome, tehnically, breach of their LEX MAIESTATIS : see Luke 22:18-30) borrowed much of its trappings from the cults of the Mystery Relgions like Sol Invictus, Mithras and Attis as well as elements of the Eleusian Mysteries at Eleusis (focussed on the goddess Gaia-Mater, the Mother Earth or "goddess Demeter") which were centered around the annual Sun cycle in their ritual worship, especially the Annual Vegetative Cyle of Spring and Winter (birth and Death of the Sun God).

As early as 100 AD we read Pliny the Younger writing "these Christiani gather and pray to Chrestus, singing hymns to him at dawn as to a god..."
where the word "dawn" may be signifiant (i.e the Rising Sun: cf: SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which shall ARISE with HEALING IN HIS WINGS, Malachi chapter 4)

December 25th was the high point of most of these solar mystery cults, being the

The "early church" especially the Pauline Churches scattered around the "pagan" Roman Empire eventually incorporated forms of devotion which were borrowed from "emperor Worship", to make converts no doubt, notice that even Nero-Caesar was called The Divine Son of the Gods and "Savior" as was Tiberius and Gaius before him) and many of the epithets applied to him (and other Messiah pretenders of the 1st and 2nd century AD like Shimeon Bar Kosiba ("bar Kohkba" in 136 AD) involved titles involving the Messianic Hope (see Luke chapter 24: "and we thought he would be the One who Would deliver and redeem Israel from its Enemies the Romans") were inter-related with Sun Worship.

See Malachi chapter 4 ("The Sun of Righteousness with Healing in his Wings" was even a phrase the pre-Christian Qumran sect of the Dead Sea Scrolls in BC 60 were applying to their Messiah figure whom they hoped would be born soon to overthrow the Romans who invaded Palestine under General Pompey in 63 BC).

R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("jeezzuzz" to most Americans who like the Latinised version of his Greek name for some reason) led an armed rebellion against Rome in 36 AD exactly 99 years since the Invasion of the Roman Army of Pompey ("The Time has Come: The Times of the Gentiles is OVER: repent and Believe the Good News of the Kingdom of God has arrived" = meaning the re-instatement of the Davvidic kings which had been in Exile since Zerubabbel in 420 BC.

This SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS was supposed to be able to miraculously slay the goyim enemies of Israel with the Breath of his Mouth (see Deutero-Zechariah chapters 9 to 14) upon the Mount of Olives which would be cleft in twain at the Day of Judgement.

That Day never came (unless you count the destruction of Israel by Rome in AD 70 which killed 900,000 people, i.e. 2/3rds of the Palestinian Jewish population over a 7 year period) but the Christian "church" (related to the Old Scottish word "Kirk" which certainly is related to our word for Circle (and the Greek word "kuklos" or (Eng. "cyclos"), cf: Gilgal (Heb: Circle) and Galilee (Lit. "ha Gilgal-ha-Goyim" the "circle of Gentiles" in the north of Palestine) .

But "death and resurrection" typology which was applied to the Messiah who was supposed to "conquor death" (see Ezekiel's Valley of Dry Bones in Hezekiel chapter 37 where YHWH raises the bodies of the slain martyrs and breathes into them the breath of life again, and their bodies re-generate) naturally brings to mind "vegetation-solar" deities and Mystery Religions which have to do with the Death of the Sun in October and the Birth of the Sun (beginning on December 25th, the birth day of Mithras and other solar gods, i.e. the Winter Solstice) celebrated as a Youth in the Spring (i.e. March 21st and again on May 1st).

No one really knows at which time of year R. Yehoshua bar Yosef was actually born: Rabinninc haggadah myths usually state that King Messiah would be born in September "of the Sign of the Virgin" (i.e. virgo) since September has so many high holy days (i.e. Rosh Hashannah, Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur and Sukkhot, or Tabernacles)

The fact that the early Christian church sometime in the 4th century ad decided to place the MASS OF CHRIST on December 25th shows that by then his cult had already fully integrated with the cult of Mithra and Sol Invictus (the Cult of the Uncoquorable Sun, which Constantine and his soldiers all belonged to).

"If you can't beat 'em join 'em," is a phrase the 4th century Catholic church no doubt would have agreed with and when they could not blot out a pagan religion or concept, they...well, simply digested it into their own faith and modern "Christians" are blissfully unaware that 90 of their liturgical practices come from "digested pagan" sources, most of them having to do with SUN WORSHIP.

The Sun is regarded by many as the ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR in all religious observation, ultimately responsible for LIFE on the planet (i.e. photosynthesis being the source of food). So it was only natural that the Christian church would have had to "digest" many outward forms of sun worship if they ever hoped to make enough converts to survive.

Paul (i.e. Saul of TARSUS) clearly consciously borrows much of his own theological language from the Mithra Mystery Solar Religion (not surprising perhaps since after all Tarsus was the capital Roman Cilicia, and the home base of the Roman Empire version of Mithraism which had been brought to Rome in 63 BC by "Cilician pirates" from the Persian east, where the savior sun "mediator between gods and men" half-god is called Mitra). He does the same with his wholesale borrowing of the complex philosophical language of Stoic philosophy (Tarsus was also the home of Stoicism).

So you can ultimately trace the rise of SOLAR CULT influences on Christianity on the fact that after the Jewish war (when Jesus' brothers' church in Jerusaelm was destroyed) in AD 72, the Pauline churches safely tucked away in places like Galatia, Corinth and Thessalonike survived to spread their solar-monotheistic tendencies even further.

How's that for a history lesson?

Originally posted by Amadeus
How's that for a history lesson?

That was very informative Amadeus. I am not surprised that none of the so called "Christians" on this board have said anything . When you start a thread about some of the misconception in Islam( and I admit that there are some) everyone has something to say. But when you come with facts not opinions about the practices of Christians it gets quite. Very Hypocritical if you ask me but I am not one to judge.

I just want to give some of the people out there a taste of there own medicine. Basically stooping down to there level. I think that I am through making post like this. No one ever responds. All I have to say Amadeus is Amen to that. ( Ra was the Sun God in Egypt. His full name was Amen Ra. That is why we say "A-men" after our prayers.) Ok i'm threw I swear. lol

Yes, by now even christians know that they have been worshiping a pagan god all this time.

It is pleanty of references on other threads about this all ready.

Even Dec. 25 is from the roman celebration of sol invictus birthday.

I was more or less raised Catholic. It wasn't necessarily against my will or anything like that. I learned some things throughout the whole experience.
I think it is kinda funny that many of the Catholic Saints double as Pagan Deities. St. Cornielle was known as Kernunnos, Herne the Hunter, etc. He was known as the horned or antlered, cloven-hooved god of the forest. I think he is also where christians get their "Satan" image from...

Notice the similarity between SON and SUN.
Sun of god.
Only begotten Sun
etc.

Light smetimes can be a holy thing. Ever see movies, or cartoons when light from the sun shines down on one person or thing wich comes from God? Maybe thats where the word Church came from. But Christians DO NOT worship the sun.

Many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th.

(Incidentally, among the religious cults which celebrated such a holy day was the Mithra sun god cult that Roman Emperor Constantine was part of. Along with holding December 25th sacred, Sunday - the day of the sun - was their holy day of the week. Coincidentally, at around the time of Constantine's reign, the Christian cult leaders made December 25th the celebration of Jesus' birthday and Sunday their Sabbath. Although this was considered an act of blasphemy by other Judaic cults, Constantine issued the Edict of Milan soon after, officially granting tolerance of Christianity in the Roman Empire.)

Yeah. You're right.

I'm a Christian, and my faith is based on the Bible, which makes it abundantly clear that there is only one God (revelaed to us in three separate persons) and that worship of anyone or anything else is utterly sinful (i.e. disobedient to God). Of course, all Christians are dimwits and still insist on worshipping the sun.

Look - I find it VERY difficult to accept that you genuinely believe that Christians worship the sun. I think you are possibly being deliberately provocative.

But for the sake of (relative) harmony, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Therefore let me tell you with utmost seriousness and honesty -

YOU ARE WRONG.

Do you pick up a book about fishing, read it thoroughly, believe every word of it to be true, and then tell people you really think it's about knitting?

Deny ignorance.

Church comes from the German kurch, , from the Greek Kuriacone which means, the Lord's. We are a people belonging to the Lord.

Yes the worship of the sun was tacked onto Christianity in the dark ages by the Roman Church...they thought it would be easier to convert the pagans to christianity if they took on some of their beliefs. They even built the churches over pagan ritual sites trying to stamp out paganism....later the church tried to justify their actions by saying that these pagan symbols represented Christ and the resurrection. Non christians seem to get hung up on this stuff. When I found out about the deception I was angry...not at God but at man for their idiocy...thinking they had to do such things in order to christianize people, they never had the faith that the power of God and the truth was all that was needed for man to come to God.

Christians don't worship the sun. Most christians don't even know that some of the rituals are pagan. God sees the heart not the mindless rituals.
Yes Christmas and Easter has it's roots in Pagan worship practices but in the heart of a Christian we see and recognize Christ, His birth, His death, His resurrection.

Well first of all, I don't have to worship the sun because I can worship the one who made the sun. Church comes from the greek word, ekklesia, meaning "a calling out". I hope it wasn't but I feel like this topic was started to cause trouble.

SUNDAY....is the 1st day of the week......

God said let there be light......day 1........SUNDAY.
On the 7th day he rested.....Saterday.

SUNDAY is not the SABBATH DAY it just plain isnt!
Look at any calender it IS the 1st day of our week!

Long ago when the Roman Catholics were attempting to gain members from the Pagan sect....the currant Pope DECIDED to make SUNDAY the Sabbath. In that way, the Church could gather MORE members due to the fact that pagans worship on Sunday the day of the SUN.

I see NO place in the bible where God says that he changed the order of the days of the week.....making Sunday the Sabbath, instead of the true Sabbath wich is Saterday.
I believe it states in the bible that the Sabbath is from sundown to sundown, so that makes the REAL Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saterday Sundown.
The ONLY people I know of that worship the Lord God on HIS Sabbath are the Jewish people.
I am not Jewish I am a Pagan if you care, or want to know.

I also believe that the bible states that those who are worshiping a false God and NOT keeping the Sabbath day Holy will NOT be saved. I think any people that think that Sunday is the Sabbath day are not in accordance to Gods actuall Biblical word.
Christians all fall under this catagory, not keeping the true Sabbath day....and worshiping on a day some ancient Pope decided on. Bummer for them hu? None of them will be saved according to the Bible.

I�ve heard these six words literally hundreds of times � usually as a response to pointing out the Biblical admonition against pagan rituals associated with the Babylonian holy days (holidays in modern English). For example, just over a month ago when a local �Christian� friend was telling me how cleverly his kids had dressed up for Halloween, I told him this holiday was of Satanic origin, and should not be observed by believers. He just smiled and said it doesn�t mean that to me.

Another time, a Christian acquaintance defended taking his entire family to see the new Harry Potter film. Blithely brushing aside my concerns about Christians embracing the fictional occult phenomena, he repeated the now familiar refrain �but it�s just fantasy and fun stories. Besides, it doesn�t mean that to me.�

Over the years, I�ve probably repeated the Biblical warnings against the pagan Babylonian ritual practice of keeping a christmas tree hundreds of times. On dozens of occasions I�ve cautioned friends and family that the christmas tree ritual is an ancient Satanic custom associated with the Greek demigod Cronos � his Roman counterpart being Saturn. In Scripture, he�s better known under his Babylonian name of Tammuz.

In Ezekiel, as part of the sun god worship that had infected the Jerusalem temple, we find the �women weeping for Tammuz� (Ezekiel 8:14) because the Babylonian sun god had died as a young deity. As part of the demonic ritual, his death was honored on his birthday which coincided with the Winter Solstice. The idolatry of sun worship is closely identified with this seasonal period when the sun begins to stay in the sky longer.

The birth of Tammuz was December 25th, and to commemorate his death, the people would cut down a young evergreen tree (which causes the death of the tree) and decorate it with bright ornaments and candles. The star placed at the top of the tree is related to Ashtaroth � the star goddess mother of Tammuz (Attis to the Phoenicians, Adonis to the Greeks, Osirus to the Egyptians, etc). The practice goes back at least 2,500 years before Jesus Christ was born. Needless to say, Jesus was not born in December.

Over 500 years before the time of Jesus, the prophet Jeremiah wrote:

�Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the peoples are vain; for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of his hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright like the palm tree, but speak not; they must needs be borne, because they cannot go.�

The ritual of the decoration of a �christmas tree� is descended from the worship of the groves in the Old Testament (Judges 3:7), the practice of Wicca (ancient Witchcraft) in the middle ages, and the Druids (child sacrifice) in more recent times. Over the years, whenever I�ve pointed this out to �Christians� that �celebrate� the holy day, virtually every one of them will justify their involvement with a variety of rationalizations. Sometimes they seek to `Christianize� the practice with a manger scene under the idolatrous tree � usually saying something to the effect of �Jesus has changed all that.� Another favorite is �Oh, I know it has dark origins, but the kids love it and the tree smells so good.�

Ezekiel also noted the fragrance associated with the ritual tree when the Lord warned how those that He was about to destroy �put the branch to their nose� (Ezekiel 8:17). As my family and �Christian� friends continue to stubbornly defend the christmas tree practice through the hardness of their hearts, I�ve learned they will ultimately seal their justification of honoring the Devil by summarily dismissing the subject (and me) with the catch phrase it doesn�t mean that to me.

Of course, the rationalizations that �believers� offer to justify their veiled rejection of most things taught in the Bible are intricately crafted and cleverly varied. All those Biblical passages about how we should live are �the law,� they say, and �we�re not under the law, we�re under grace.� I�ve been repeatedly told about the �freedom� we have in Christ � another apparent justification for behaving in whatever fashion suits us.

When I tell all who will listen that the Sword of God is raised against �the children of disobedience� and that America is about to be harshly judged, I�ve learned to expect a series of defensive New Testament verses taken out of context � usually followed by the now hollow catch phrase �it doesn�t mean that to me.�

Those that have added that slick sound bite to their theological vocabulary can expect to learn a new phrase they will hear on judgment day: Depart from me, ye that work iniquity, I never knew you. And when they cry out in terrified desperation, `but Lord,� �we have eaten and drunk [taken communion] in thy presence,� the Scriptures bluntly inform us that He will say �I know you not whence ye are.� (Luke 13:26, 25)

And as they are being sent into outer darkness prepared for the Devil and his angels, the lost will undoubtedly follow in Satan�s illustrious footsteps, and resort to twisting Scripture before the Lord � `But Lord, your Bible promised that I all I ever had to do was just say that prayer, and accept you.� Wouldn�t it be ironic, if He would then say to those that refused to listen to His repeated warnings, It Doesn�t Mean That To Me.

Christian Media Network

Neverfear...?
is that something you wrote? if so why does it imply at the end that it came from a Christian media network, i dont understand? I was reading that thinking you wrote it........now I dont know.

'Do Christians really worship the sun'...IS 6 words is THAT what you mean? I am confused I am not trying to be a pain here i am just trying to understand


[edit on 20-6-2004 by theRiverGoddess]

Unless you can explain how the "sun" came down from Heaven, lived a perfect human life, died on the cross, arose from death 3 days later after paying the price for our sins, walked on the earth for a few more days so that people could witness His being alive, and then ascended back to His Father and today acts as our intercessorary, I have to answer your question with a simple "no".

It seems that many on this thread do not understand much about the political underpinnings of what became the Roman Catholic Church in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, or have any real understanding of the the complex religio-political world in which the Roman Church had to cope with in order to survive, to become, eventually "the Official State Religion" of the Roman Empire.

And "the outward pagan-like and complicated ritual trappings of the Catholic Church" (including Pagan Feast Days like the Mass of Chrsit on December 25) certainly had come a long way away from its humbler, simpler beginnings in Palestine under a leader who led an armed rebellion with his tiny band of followers against the forces of mighty Rome during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius, and paid the ultimate penalty for his crime.

Paganism (from the Latin word "paganus" meaning "village", i.e the last people to "get converted" to any "new" faith, being out there in the remoter parts, away from the "fast cities", and thus more likely to cling on to the Old Ways, e.g. northern Scotland still has villages of pre-Christian Wicca to this day) existed for hundreds of centuries before "Messianism" arose in Palestine, which eventually gave birth to the early "Christian Church" who were originally "Messianic Last Days" Jews.

The first "Christians" were Messianic Jews themselves, just like the Dead Sea Scroll Sect in Qumran, all anxiously awaiting their Jewish Messiah figure to save Israel from its political enemies and reinstate the Davvids on the Throne of Israel: that was their original message "These be the Days of Vengeance of our God: the Times of the Gentiles is Fulfulled, Prepare yourselves for the Coming of the Kingdom of Heaven " etc.

The ideas which formed the pieces of the Jewish Messianic movement arose back in the 8th century BC: first after the Assyrian invasions of Palestine way back in 722 BC when the 10 lost tribes were skirted out of the coutnry, and the process and "popular reaction" snowballed from there: Some Day YHWH would send us another Daviddic King to overthrow the Gentile Overlords !

But other invasions and deportations of Judaea quickly followed : Babylon, then Persia, then Greece and finally, after 100 years of semi Independence under the Macabbees, Rome itself invaded Jerusalem in 63 BC, which stared Messianic Hopes all over again.

Precisely 100 years later, in AD 36, during the end of the "ministry" of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef ("Jeeeezuzzzz") , the Romans (whom the Judaeans nicknamed "The Kittim") were the target of several carefully planned counter-revolutions.

Even "Jeeezuzzz" himself (Luke chapter 22:18) armed his disciples on the hill with swords to take back the land of Israel ("These be the Days of Vengeance: the Times of the Gentiles is Fulfilled" as it says in Luke's gospel, which is a direct quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls [War Scroll, IQM])

They thought they were living in the LAST DAYS: they had no need for elaborate feast day rituals: that came after the 2nd Coming never showed up and the Church was left....well, with just a Church.

300 years later, the peculiar 4th century "Roman" form of Christianity (yes, there were at least 50 different "Christianities" from Gnostic to Adoptionist, to Docetic, which emerged all claiming to have preserved the "true teachings of Iesous" that emerged between AD 40 and AD 340) eventually became the "normative" church---and anyone veering from the rule was a "heretic", to be put down by force, including the burning of sacred books.

It was the See of Rome, the biggest, richest, and most politically influential of all the Chrisitan communities that eventually in the 4th century seized control of "what constituted heresies", especially after the See of Rome eventually became "The Seat" of the Official Religion of the Roman Empire.

The powerful Roman Church organization centered in the Capitol of Rome itself, clearly found it easier to swallow Paganism and pagan practices and digest its belief system than to fight it---thus the external trappings, holidays, vestments, liturgical hymns etc. of the cults of Mithas the Savior (the most popular competitor to all the Christianities floating around back then) and Sol Invictus (the two cults, that of Mithras and Sol Invictus, the "Unconquerable Sun" were joined in some cities) were borrowed wholesale by the Roman Catholic Chuch including the birth-day of the god (December 25th).

It's the old Adage: If you Can't Beat 'em, Join 'em.

Even the idea of the socalled "Eucharist" (a Mithraic technical liturgical term) which portrayed a divine Meal or Communion with the god was all borrowed from the Roman Mystery cults, but very few "Christians", especially the innocent "sheep" on this thread, are not allowed to know these things.

Here's your first Clue:

Paul was born in TARSUS the capital of Roman Mithraism, and introduced the bread and wine thing (I Corinthians 15) in a whole new Mithraic way (by "drinking the blood" of the grape, like the followers of Mithras did, 100 years before Iesous was even thought of). He never "met" R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean in the flesh during his life: he only knew "Iesous" by dreams and visions, the way my cook knows "Jeeeezuzzz".

Paul, that good old Roman Citizen, who was born in a Greek Speaking city, did not get along with the Palestinian Jews who were a little racist about "the chosen people", and he fought bitterly (Galatians chapter 2) with some of thethe original disciples (calling them, "so called Pillars" and "hypocrites!" about eating only Kosher food and about preaching to Gentiles which the first followers of "Iesous" were forbidden to do by "Jeeeezzzuzzz" himself who "only came to save the LOST SHEEP of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" like any other good old Messianic Daviddic Pretender would have done (it was after all the Ingathering of the 10 "lost tribes of Israel" that the Messiah was supposed to bring back to the land of Israel in the "Last Days" read Trito-Isaiah chpaters 56 to 66 and Jeremiah 35 to 50, etc. )

Notice the words placed in the R. Yehoshua's own mouth in the SyroPhoenecian Woman pericope: ("son of David, have mercy upon me!")

Jeeezzzuzzz answers, rather arrogantly: "Since when is it right to take the Bread of the Children out of their mouths and throw it to the DOGS gathered under neath the Table?" (Matthew chapter 15)

"Paul", the self appointed Apostle (who defends his title a little too protestingly, if you ask me) and others like him (all professing "Christian Authority") who came after him in the later half of the 1st century (i.e. after Rome Destroyed Israel and the Temple Cult in Jerusalem in AD 70, along with "Jesus' "own original Daviddic (Jewish) family blood-line based and disciple-based "Nazorean Church" whcih was likewise virtually wiped out during the 1st Jewish War Against Rome) was one of the most influential individuals after "Iesous" who TWISTED the orignial Kosher eating, Gentile Hating Nazorean Jewish-Christianity into a more "universal" and "personal" saviour god very "gentile- friendly-type" religion, opening the doors to all kinds of Pagan Influence which eventually, centuries after his death, included Sun Worship copy cats (e.g. Dec 25th or the idea of a dying and resurrecting god every Spring etc.).

The church did all of this ABSORBING OF PAGAN RITES simply BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT STAMP IT OUT, NOR COMPETE WITH IT. So they made it their own.

Some of these pagan practices had already been absorbed by the Jews (Pesach or Passover originally came from the Canaanite PESACH Spring Festival, dedicated to the Limping God Baal and the Spring Lambs--so even the Jews borrowed heavilly from older and more sophisticated pagan cultures they came in contact with).

There are over 100 examples of other "Jewish" rituals which had their roots in paganism e.g. the Feast of Tabernacles and the Feast of Sukkhot, but also other "Jewish" practices in the socalled Torah came from the pagans, including their rituals for burnt offerings, wine/drink offerings, "waive offerings" , tithing, shrine-temple building, priestly families, vestments, temple ritual paraphenalia, prayers, melodies, chants-Psalms, etc.) having been themselves derived from an admixture of Canaanite, Egyptian, Syrian and Babylonian ritual practices.

The Christians, which all ultimately started out as "Jews "like their original Teacher, just followed the pattern already setof borrowing and adapting to their own belief systems, often changing the meaning of the ritual, the way the Christians changed the socalled Jewish Passover Blessing of the Bread and Wine into the "Eucharist of the Last Supper."

These wholesale borrowings from pagan sources was widespread. No cult on earth just sprang up out of nowhere. They grew out of already established practices, then morphed into a different religious practice----gradually over many generations, almost imperceptively to the worshipper who eventually would have grown ignorant of its "pagan" origin.

Even the design of the Jerusalem ("Solomon's") Temple of YHWH is modelled on PAGAN layout/design (complete with a Holy of Holies Cube in the back) down to exact, specific dimensions (see the Temple of Astarte in Syria dated 1900 BC, long before Moses, which uses the same flood plan as that of the socalled Jerusalem Temple in the Torah and I Kings

The socalled 1st Jerusalem Temple, or the "Temple of Solomon" was, after all, built by pagan Syro-Phoenecians (Hiram of Tyre, a non Jew, was contracted to build the Temple of YHWH by Solomon himself), and the Tyrian Sheckel actually became the OFFICIAL TEMPLE CURRENCY of the Jerusalem cult (cf: the Money Changers in the Temple of "Jeeeezuzzz" during the Temple Tantrum).

No wonder the Roman Chuch saw nothing wrong with wholesale borrowings: it had been done by Jews and Christians for centuries before....and so did virtually ALL the "Mystery Religions" too borrow heavily from each other (and "Christianity" itself was a MYSTERY RELIGION competing right alongside the others for converts:

"Behold I Tell you a Mystery" or "To those outside is hidden in Parables the Mystery of the Kingdom of God...")

all who were competing against each other back in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD (e.g. the Mysteries of Mithras, Attis, Demeter-Eleusis, Attanuz-Adonis, Isis-Osiris, Zeus Piter, Serapion (Osiris-Apis), The Dionysian Mysteries, the Orphic Mysteries, the Pythagorean Mysteries etc.)

There is NOTHING pure (or "non-pagan" about either Chrisitianty's liturgical practices or the "Messianic End of Days" ritual forms of Judaeism that it ultimately sprang from.

People who call themselves "Chrstians" on this thread should pick up a book (other than their poorly translated "English" Bibles) sometime and read around their subject a little. It might open their eyes to the "pagan roots" where half of their belief system came from.