Juror booted out for naughty T-shirt

Originally posted by Wildbob77
I had to go to court one day.

The case in front of mine was a teenager who showed up for court with pants below his undies, lots of piercings tats etc.

I don't know what transpired before I sat down.

But the judge said something to the effect that the defendant had showed no respect for the court and the judge was ready to incarcerate him for like a year.

You should have seen the change in attitude from the teenager. He was basically begging for a second chance. So the judge said something to the effect that the defendant is basically unemployable dressing and covered with his ridiculousness body mods. The judge postponed the case for six weeks. He gave the defendant a contact for free tattoo removal, and told him that he would see him in six weeks at which time he would not be waring any piercings, he would be dressed in khaki pants pulled up and belted at his waste, a plain shirt with a collar and that his visible tattoos would have to be in the process of being removed and he needed to have a job, otherwise he's going to jail.

The kid, had lost all his attitude and was agreeing to all the conditions.

That was reality biting him in the butt.

I want to know where it is against the law to be a part of a culture through dress/attire.

The only law is you have to be clothed (and even some places don't have this law).

There is no law in my city/state/nation that states earrings are detestable therefore will land you in jail.
Or that Tattoos are irresponsible and demand incarceration.

This is why I do not consider this a legitimate authority any more.

Only a insane person would believe such fantasies.

I simply am observing reality. That they have broken their contract to protect freedom, and are now actively going out of their way to oppress it with threats of JAIL.

I would not have buckled to that judge. I would DEMAND EXECUTION because I refuse to live in such a dystopian reality..

I will NEVER submit to illegitimate authority that acts just like a pack of national socialists in germany 1938.

If you submit to them you are PROMOTING THEIR TYRANNY.

RESIST and take any punishment they dish out. And never give in.

Either defend my liberty, or kill me.
I will not submit to this.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by muzzleflash]

Muzzleflash,

Ive read alot of your posts and you have aquired many stars from me on myraid topics...I agree that IDEALLY we should stand up against certian injustices. I also Appluade your stand up attitude and proclemation of resistance should you encounter the same circumstances.

I however when confronted with similar instance could not rationalize the fine and or few days in jail for a peck on the cheek from my girlfriend.I didnt have the money to register my car let alone pay a lawyer or trust a public defender with my freedom in a contempt of court appeal. they have you over a barrel and they know it

the thing is when you do enter that courtroom you are subject to ,due to luck of the draw, the whims of any judge presiding on that particular matter.

Is this wrong? yes.
does it make me mad? yes
was i willing at 20 years old to stand up to this judge and put a little prick into his inflated baloon of an ego? NO
Would i do it differantly now that im more mature and a bit more knowledgable on the law? Yes i would..i wouldnt have slapped those plates on my car illegally and gotten put into that courtroom to begin with....

any time i have been to court for myself or as support to a friend/loved one the judge always refers to it as "MY COURTROOM"
because wrong or right that is how they feel...
and if they hold you in contempt of court, which is there perogative(sadly) they can be as stiff or leniant as they choose.

that said i find it very distasteful of the juror to wear that particular shirt and if not distasteful a very serious lack of judgment at the least was displayed.

the judge on the otherhand could have just told her to go into the bathroom and turn it inside out..


~meathead

This story is brilliant. I was unluckily forced one day to serve the state by being a captive spectator of the American judicial circus from the jury bench. If I had known that merely wearing a T-shirt would have gotten me off the mind numbing and utterly soul deadening activity of jury duty, I would have worn a KKK hood and my South Park T-shirt of Gingers!

Now, I am wiser!

Originally posted by Mike Stivic

that said i find it very distasteful of the juror to wear that particular shirt and if not distasteful a very serious lack of judgment at the least was displayed.

the judge on the otherhand could have just told her to go into the bathroom and turn it inside out..


~meathead

Thank you for the reply Mike.

I want to reply and say, it is up to you the Citizen to teach manners to fellow citizens. Your personal comments should be enough to push any reasonable person to think twice about their "rude behavior" , and potentially grow up.

However having a Judge of the Law do this, is an atrocity to the Constitutional liberties our very freedom is protected by.

I understand why people give in. But they are falling for a bluff.

We need to choose punishment over accepting injustice. It is worth the struggle for the sake of the protection of personal liberty.

If we give up on this front, the entire war may be lost for good. And I refuse to believe we will lose.

Freedom will win because it is the force of nature itself.

Have faith not fear.

reply to post by IAF101


being excused to the bathroom while holding you stomach, then wetting down a paper towel and tamping it on your forehead,then returning to the juror pool station proclaiming your discomfort and wiping the "sweat" from your brow while mumbling "diahrea" works real good if you can keep a straight face" usually gets u a quick trip to the elevator and parking lot bound....

well thats what a friend told me..............................

*warning*
this post may be pushing the on topic envelope


~meathead

reply to post by muzzleflash


"Thank you for the reply Mike."

Please call me meathead

"I want to reply and say, it is up to you the Citizen to teach manners to fellow citizens. Your personal comments should be enough to push any reasonable person to think twice about their "rude behavior" , and potentially grow up. "

agreed if the comments are politely poised

"However having a Judge of the Law do this, is an atrocity to the Constitutional liberties our very freedom is protected by."

I agree

"I understand why people give in. But they are falling for a bluff. "

in my instance it was not "falling for the bluff" it was obviously not the IDEAL way to react, but the repercussions would have been very real, what i did was in my opinion the most practical recourse

"We need to choose punishment over accepting injustice. It is worth the struggle for the sake of the protection of personal liberty."

Again IDEALLY i agree and i applaude your sincerity, however when it comes to most americans(myself included and again sadly) it is easier said than done.

"If we give up on this front, the entire war may be lost for good. And I refuse to believe we will lose."

i am of the opinion that picking and choosing your battles Carefully as the "little guy" is extremely important. If i spent time in jail and got sucked into that sort of mentality how would that effect me long term or my close family who would no doubt go through untold grief?



"Freedom will win because it is the force of nature itself."

I too Keep that faith my brother

"Have faith not fear".

may the base of your wisdom support many pillars of truth

respectfully yours,

~meathead

reply to post by tezzajw
No, really.... who the F--k is Kanye West?

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Dress code lover eh?

I hope the Muslims come and impose Sharia dress codes on YOU.

Then we will see who is a fan of forced Dress Codes.

Sorry for the low blow, but you had it coming lol.

I guess you don't have a job then or have never been to an interview. Or attended a funeral or a wedding. Or been to a school that had a uniform. Or any of the other atrocious places that have *gasp* a dress code.

I guess you've never had any problem getting into a club wearing thongs and shorts. Or been told store policy requires shoes as you walked barefoot into a department store.

Deary me, those awful dress codes.. How on earth dare people have such a thing, especially one that is accepted by most people with even a hint of common sense.

Yep, just a loin cloth and a club is all we need. Or else, those muslims will come and do whatever it is you babbled on about.

Because that was absolutely spot on, and made perfect sense in the context of this thread..



Oh and for the record, no.. I am not a dress code lover.. I just use common sense and apply it where it is required. Isn't hard to do, to be honest.

Really though, it's all about respect. I'm sure he took it a little personal too. I once went into a medical clinic and didn't take my baseball cap off when the doctor came in and he snatched it off my head with some force and gave me a look like I was some disgusting punk kid. He didn't say a word, just gave me the stink eye. Geeze! I usually do take my hats off, being X military but forgot to that day. Maybe he didn't get laid that morning either, who the F knows.

[edit on 25-6-2010 by KrispyB]

reply to post by brainwrek


Your entitled to your opinion, but I see this type of behavior as immaturity.

Its an example of what is wrong with this world. I see People getting more selfish, rude, crass and downright nasty. People used to have pride in little things, their appearance and how they presented themselves was important.

People only care about themselves with no concern about how it effects other people. When you have no regard for other human beings its the definition of being less then human.

reply to post by muzzleflash


So your of the opinion you should be able to go in as a JUROR in a red thong and sunglasses and that's all ok?

Basically giving zero respect to everyone, the judge, the other jurors, the accused, the attorneys, the other people in the court, YET somehow, wanting respect yourself? So how does that work?

reply to post by whatukno


It doesn't work.

I'm all for the fact that judges in this country need to be put in their place (just like all politicians,) but a fellow human being's trial is an event worthy of respect and professionalism. Muzzleflash needs to forget the judge and the lawyers for a minute and think about the poor soul being put on trial. Technically that person is innocent until the very end of the trial, and even then may very well remain innocent. That defendant does not deserve to spend their trial looking at the asshat with the "Who the F*** is Kanye West" shirt and thinking about the fact that their future is resting in the hands of somebody that immature.

Unfortunately, some people have come to the ridiculous conclusion that freedom can only be achieved by anarchy and therefor have no respect for the law. Muzzleflash can shout all he wants about how he would refuse to acknowledge the Judge's authority, but we all know what would really happen. He'd make a big scene in the courtroom doorway, get tazered by the cops until he passed out, and he'd wake up in jail regardless.

All I have to say on this issue is keep following the herd and bah, bah, bah, to your death, when that judge becomes the be all end all in deciding your fate.

Regardless of jury trials the judge is the final say in most cases and sometimes can make it so you don't have a fair trial regardless if they are paid off or in someones pocket or not.

So someone wears something objectionable who are you or i to say what they should wear. That's the problem with society these days everyone is so concerned with controlling or giving their opinion on how to control others.

I think it's just because it's easier for those concerned to judge and try to control others then realize their being controlled in their own life. Useless sheep in a world of wolf's. I'll howl at your gravestones when the useless are gone.

And on a more important note, something we have forgotten if we look at recent "exemption legislation" regarding constitutional rights. We need to remember there are only two sides to rights. It is either enforced in full or it is denied in full their is no middle ground. This means we either have freedom of speech and it is enforced in full without any restrictions or it is denied.

You either have the freedom of religion in full or you don't. You either have the right to keep and bear arms in full or you don't. Many people don't understand this and that is what has led to legislation limiting these rights to only be partially enforced. or restricting what we can do with free speech or where we have free speech.

And even how much we have to pay, in regards to permits, to have freedom of speech in a certain area. We have legislation that restricts what type of arms we may own. Again many agree with that legislation stating "you have no need of these arms" that's the same thing many have said in the past. You know who they were? Red coats, Nazi's and any other fascist or restrictive government agency or funded branch of the government.

There is no requirement in the constitution to prove a need or requirement for the arms. It simply states you have a "god given right" meaning the right does not come from, nor is dictated, by man. That means man has no right to dictate whether that right can be restricted or infringed upon.

True freedom is only restricted by our willingness to surrender freedoms due to instilled values, morals and social norms which are more ways to restrict individuals views and actions towards themselves and others. Therefore your only perpetuating the ptb's agenda.

If you want to see who the powers that be are you need only look in the mirror if you are one who is trying to restrict someones rightful actions. Maybe there isn't even a ptb. It seems there are enough individuals willing to restrict others rights, tptb don't even need to do anything anymore to influence them to do so, they willingly harass and restrict the freedoms of others.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by LurkingSleipner]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by SpeedBump
reply to post by tezzajw

 

I would have thrown them out too. A jury is serious business. That's someone's life or freedom you're talking about, that they're messing with.

So how does your choice of t-shirt affect your ability to decide someone's fate?

Would she have been a better juror if she wore a shirt and skirt?

It is about respect for the magnitude of the duty you are under taking. It is a sign that you take the matter serious and that you have respect for yourself and those involved in the process.

Of course these days respect for any person, institution, or situation is a foreign concept. Some how people have gotten the idea they should be able to dress, talk, or act in any manner and everybody else should just take it.

I feel like an old man and I haven't even hit thirty.

Originally posted by brainwrek

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by brainwrek

 

Think the juror would have been removed if she wore a shirt saying something along the lines of "PRAISE JESUS!!!!!!"?

Of course not, but that is still offensive to some people.

Words. On. A. Shirt.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by brainwrek]

In North Carolina they would have been dismissed with equal speed. It is a matter of respect for those around you and the situation.

I guess some on this thread have never visited another’s house, have people over at their house, or most importantly respect their grandparents.

For one if someone comes into my house I am in charge, being the one in charge it is my rule or the highway. You go to a courtroom and whether you agree or not the judge is in charge, it is the judges’ rules. It is not about you when you are in a place where someone else sets the rules and runs how things work it is about following their rules or understanding the repercussions of not doing so.

Before going to court you know and understand there is a dress rule in affect. You can either respect and abide by the rule or you will be cast out of court of be charged with contempt. It is not like you are not given fair warning of a dress code, often they even have it posted on the doors at the entrance.

Same goes for entering another’s house or having someone enter your home. There are rules set forth (generally) or the person is asked to leave. It is about showing respect for others as well as yourself. This has nothing to do with someone walking down the street wearing a shirt like this, it is about being in a place with rules already set forth.

Raist

Originally posted by Raist
I guess some on this thread have never visited another’s house, have people over at their house, or most importantly respect their grandparents.

You go to a courtroom and whether you agree or not the judge is in charge, it is the judges’ rules.

Yes, but the only difference being I'm not forced to go to your house by law or be thrown in jail for disobeying a summons. Therefore being forced into a place and forced to be stripped of your constitutional right to be secure in your person place and things and to have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness taken away, which is all inclusive of so many things they cant be listed here. So keep on using invalid comparisons. Your house is in no way like a court unless you illegally restrict my travel, imprison me in your house, and hold me in unlawful detention.

+1 for pursuing your agenda
-1 for being ignorant in your view on what is right and wrong in life. morally that is not in regards to laws etc.. I meant what is morally right and wrong.


[edit on 26-6-2010 by LurkingSleipner]

So the pro-Freedom point of view is being attacked as "disrespectful" . This is all a misunderstanding.

I am probably more respectful to other people than the vast majority of folks who SUPPORT the Judge Legislating Manners from the Bench with no regards to our Constitution at all.

At the store, I always say "excuse me" to people I get in the way of. I move my basket ahead of time when I see other folks coming through the isle. I refer to EVERYONE as Sir or Ma'am.

When I am driving on the road, I go the speed limit, and when crazies just HAVE to pass me because they cannot be patient and drive ACCORDING TO THE LAW (hypocrites much?) I just move over to the side because I am a nice guy, but I will not speed for anyone.

I try my best to never cut people off, I do everything I can to help others have a decent day. I wave people on and give them the right of way often.

I have true good old fashion manners and impress others with my kindness and consideration. I hold doors for folks and say "Good afternoon" or "howdy".

And yet out in the real world, I rarely see ANYONE with respect for others these days. The older folks are typically the only ones with a sense of RESPECT anymore.

What is the point of a Legislature when a Judge can make up his own rules as he goes?

If we Respected Everyone no matter what, we would NEVER have had the Revolutionary War, everyone would have said "No it's the KING he DESERVES utmost respect and obedience."

A courtroom is not his room, its OUR room. It's the PEOPLE's property. And if this courtroom is NOT people's property, than I refuse to enter it as it is a private property of someone I do not know.

The blind conformity to "feel good" crack downs on freedom have got to come to and end, now.

I can see all too clearly, that many folks respect Authority and yet have NO RESPECT for citizens and their LIBERTY.

Authority ONLY deserves respect when it is Respectful of the Liberty of the Citizens it is by LAW forced to Defend. When this is not defended, it is a dictatorship and an abomination.

Kangaroo court?

Keep defending the system that will imprison you one day wrongfully. You will have no right to complain because you are perpetuating this by calling it disrespectful to attempt to defend your LIBERTY.

If my Constitutional Liberties END the minute I step foot in a so called "court room" than this is a pure overthrow of our foundational freedoms. The courtroom should be the primary place Liberty is protected, not some place where a guy can change all of the rules on the spot to fit his/her opinions.

I am simply amazed people will use a "respect" argument to defend the act of stripping someone of their Constitutionally protected Rights.

America is screwed until you folks open your minds to how wrong this really is.

Claim "a court is serious business", then at the same time I hear comments like "I can look at someone and tell if they are guilty", and then lets watch innocent people go to jail and have their life RUINED over arbitrary crap that there is typically little PROOF of in the first place.

I am completely baffled in every way possible.

I will never give up though, because I will convince others that defending freedom is worth it.

And like I said before, the only LAW that exists on this stuff is that you have to be Clothed. It says nothing about what message may be printed on those cloths. Pants + shoes + shirt is the law. (And some places do NOT have this law at all.....)

Show me the law that says having a bad word on a shirt is illegal. SHOW ME. You cant!

Therefore, this is Legislation from the Bench of the Judiciary. This is not mere interpretation of a Existing Law. This is the creation of NEW laws on the spot derived from the opinion of the judge.

Totally Unconstitutional.

If you don't like it how about get a law passed? Rather than just oppressing everyone on the basis of Opinion?

And comparing this to thongs is not legit. The clothing law says Pants Shirt and Shoes, this implies automatically that Underwear does not count as "pants". This is simple logic and all of these arguments are absurd attempts to derail the truth.

It just amazes me that all of the sudden tons of "respectful" people are coming out of the woodwork to defend legislation from the bench on grounds of "respect".

Where did these respectful people come from? I am so confused.

When I am traveling out on the road, 99.9% of other drivers exhibit no respect at all. They speed constantly, cut others off, road rage, etc.

When you are driving do you speed? If so, than what the hell? You claim to be all pro-law and pro-authority yet you ignore this very authority and speed because "you are in a hurry". A hurry to a wreck maybe...

I am amazed that this .1% of the population visits ATS. The .1% that follows all of the driving laws out there, and defends this judge at the same time.

The way I see it is, no one here has a leg to stand on. You cannot just break laws when you feel like it, and then turn around and enforce laws that do NOT even exist!!!

If you actually follow the laws you are the .1%. And I cannot criticize you, instead I can only ask you to think about this legal matter deeper and hopefully turn you against Judges who Legislate opinions.

What is next?
A shirt with a cross on it is illegal? A shirt with a quote from the Koran? A kid with a funny hair do?

It's really getting out of control.

But I just do not see you folks out in the real world. Everywhere I have gone (all over the USA) people drive like maniacs with no regards to the LAW. This is so hypocritical it's baffling.

Originally posted by Raist
I guess some on this thread have never visited another’s house, have people over at their house, or most importantly respect their grandparents.

Is a courtroom the private property of the Judge? Where any opinion the Judge has is the Rule??

Or is a courtroom the People's public property and a place where the LAW is to be upheld?

Yeah lets compare going to a Court of Law, with coming over to hang out at a friend's private house.

If Court is a private property of the Judge, I choose to not go.

I don't visit folks houses if I do not like them.

Nor do I know anyone that forces me to visit their house at the barrel of a gun and with threats of incarceration...