Israel, given all that we've seen:

Ok, so I've posted a lot of this thread before, but it seems important now to readdress some of this now. I see a lot of anti-Semitism on this forum, and especially in the last little while I've seen a lot of hate speak directed towards Jews. I think people need to realize that we are not contending against flesh or blood, but against the rulers of this present darkness. And whatever Israel might be - it's not the "global elite". Whatever some conspirators might say, Israel is not some "Rothschild Illuminati tool" - that is clear fantasy.

I'm a student of history, and I've studied the history of Palestine, and I don't at all understand people who accuse "Zionism" or "Israel" of great global misdeeds. I sort of understand the idea of the “Global Jewish conspiracy”, I mean, I don’t agree with or believe in it, but I sort of “understand” it. But Israel? Really?

So first off, the British Palestine partition plan was a colonial imposition. It was their sad attempt to not break any of the stupid promises they'd made when they were trying to win a couple world wars. There weren’t really that many Jews in Palestine during WWI, and the British needed an ally against the Turks so they promised the Arabs an independent state in Palestine if they would help the British fight the Turks. Lawrence of Arabia, all that jazz. So the British promise Palestine to the Arabs.

But then at the same time all this is happening, there are a lot of pogroms against the Jews being conducted in Eastern Europe. A couple of ambitious and idealistic European Jews devise the idea of creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. There are already a lot of Jews living in Palestine, but they’re still a clear minority compared to Arab Christians and Muslims. These first “Zionists” create an international organization to encourage Jewish emigration to Palestine. There’s nothing sinister about it: It’s a smart idea – Jews in Europe are being oppressed, they want a home to call their own – these guys tell them they can make a new home in Palestine. At the time, tensions between Jews and Arabs in Palestine are rather low, so it’s a very inviting place to migrate compared to the persecution and anti-Semitism of Europe. Not surprisingly, people start to move there.

Then Nazism happens. Well, oh boy, more Jews are desperately trying to leave Europe. Especially when the Nazis take over most of the continent and start rounding them up and sending them to death camps. It’s not the Palestinians fault, but they sure seem to get the raw end of the problem. As more and more Jews move to Palestine, tensions start to mount. The British, who administrate Palestine at the time, are officially neutral in the conflict, but British forces help both sides at various times, with or without official sanction. All in all, my historical study has led me to conclude the British forces occupying Palestine tended to side with the Christian Arabs (who supported the Palestinians) though there were some local commanders who sympathized with the Jewish cause.

As more and more Jews flee to Palestine, tensions with the Palestinians mount, and the Palestinia leadership becomes more radical. The religious and political leader of Palestine at the time, the Mufti of Jerusalem (en.wikipedia.org...) was a Nazi sympathizer and collaborator, who met privately with Hitler, and supported Hitler’s extermination of the Jews. His support for Hitler was derived specifically from Hitler’s support of the Idea that Jews be driven, not only from Europe, but from Arab lands as well.

When the 1947 partition plan was announced, no one was happy with it. How could they be? It was no big Zionist conspiracy - a lot of the Zionists were as pissed off as the Arabs. Jews fleeing torture and death were promised a homeland by the British, who felt guilty over what happened in WW2 and the pogroms that preceded it. The Arabs were promised a homeland by the Brits in 1928 for helping them fight the Turks. Both sides wanted the whole damn thing and all either of them got was a lousy, indefensible, misshapen chunk.

Check out the 1947 UN Partition plan: en.wikipedia.org...
The Israelis were given a strategically indefensible position. Well, I suppose you could say that the Palestinian territory is equally indefensible, but it's worth remembering that the Palestinians had the collective armed forces of 5 Arab nations (including every single one of Palestine's neighbours) on their side.

Militarily, in 1948, the Palestinians and the Jews were about even. The Haganah (Israeli) militia's heaviest weapons in 1948 (when the first draft of the partition plan was announced) were some World War I artillery they stole from the British, and some re-assembled pieces they smuggled out of eastern Europe. Over the twenty years leading up to partition, there was no unified Jewish military command. There were some moderate Zionist politicians and a bunch of street-gangs/militia groups. They terrorized the British, the Palestinians, each other... whatever. The Palestinians weren’t much better; they had their own terrorist groups. Both sides engaged in atrocities – I’ve personally studied many of them that were committed by both sides. All of it appals me, but there’s no black and white distinction to be seen – no clear victim; no clear aggressor – just two oppressed peoples forced to fight one another for survival.

***Continued Below***


[edit on 3-6-2010 by RedBird]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by RedBird]

[edit on 3-6-2010 by RedBird]

It’s disgusting that it happened, but don’t blame the Arabs or the Jews, blame the British, or the other colonial powers that made this kind of thing possible. And say what you want about international finance capital and its role in starting the world wars, but there was very little financial support for Israel in the run up to 1948. Most of their money came in the form of private donations from American Jews fundraised by Golda Meir on her trip around the United States. No “big bankers” were funding the Jewish League, I can tell you that much. Such a notion is pure fantasy. The Zionist Jews were scraping spare dollars from Jewish Diaspora around the world through fundraisers, and buying spare parts from junkyards to assemble their own armoured vehicles.

What needs to be remembered is that because Israel wasn't a country at this point, the Jews didn't just get to "buy guns" from arms manufacturers. They had to smuggle stuff in, defying international law and smuggling them past real blockades of Arab vessels. Their exploits included smuggling an entire disassembled munitions plant into Israel disguised as industrial textile manufacturing parts, and then re-assembling it on the other side. They also managed to buy a bunch of small arms from the Czechs by using fake Angolan government notarized papers to order arms, and then bribing a ship captain to take them to Tel-Aviv. Their air force was a single recent immigrant British Jew flying a vintage British fighter plane out of an abandoned air strip.

In all fairness, the Palestinians weren't much better. They had plenty of access to weapons and ammunition through Egypt and Jordan, which meant they were better armed than the Jews, but they were badly organized, and poorly trained. Many of them were nothing more than young Arab men who had heard about what was happening, and ridden off to Palestine with nothing more than a water skin and an antique rifle, ready to fight for the holy land.

The most disciplined military organization to fight on the Palestinian side was the Arab League. These were the premier Arab soldiers; stationed in Jordan and trained and commanded by British officers. But they were ordered only to fight for territory expressly given to the Palestinians by the UN Partition plan, so they concentrated on Jerusalem and the West Bank. The rest of the Palestinian fighters were commanded by various tribal chieftains and warlords.

Many village youths were pressed into service by militia groups, but this happened on both sides. Many young Jewish immigrants to Palestine, fleeing persecution in Europe - literally right off the boat - were handed weapon and uniform, and thrust onto buses for Jerusalem and the front lines by the Haganah. There are accounts of buses full of 15, 16, and 17 year old boys, all from different countries in Europe, who all spoke different languages, literally being handed a rifle and sent into battle with no idea what was going on, and no one who could explain it to them.

When the British withdrew from Palestine, they did so to the sound of bagpipes. On both sides of the British dividing position, Jewish and Palestinian fighters waited, ready. The moment the British positions were vacated, Jews and Arabs alike rushed to the British posts from their respective lines, and the fighting started immediately. Most of them didn’t even have weapons; they fought with Molotov cocktails, homemade grenades, and with whatever else was at hand.

The same night that the UN voted to accept the Palestine Partition Plan, David Ben Gurion read the announcement of the Declaration of the State of Israel on the radio from Tel Aviv. In Audio recordings of this address, preserved to this day, you can still hear the sound of bombs going off in the background, and Ben Gurion’s apology, as he says they must cut the address short – the Egyptians are bombing Tel Aviv.

I’m not going to spend a whole lot of time talking about the war of 1948-49. I’ve written academic papers on it, and I don’t feel like reproducing them here. It was a fascinating conflict, and I encourage anyone who is interested in military history to study it thoroughly. If you have only a casual interest I highly recommend the book “Oh Jerusalem” : en.wikipedia.org...! It is one of the finest, most objective; historical and personal explorations of the 1948 War and the founding of Israel.

I was originally going to expand this post to the Suez crisis, 1967, 1973, and beyond, but I now feel no need. I imagine this post will generate controversy enough. And there Is little I can say to sway anyone’s opninion.

All I can say is this:

Do your own research. And I don’t mean reading ATS or David Icke – I mean reading an honest to God book – like the kind you find at a public library or academic institution. If you’re able, preferably stick to primary historical documents, though there are many good collections of these you can find at Universities.

So much anti-Israel-ism these days is just instititutionalized anti-Semitism. I know that sounds cliché and apologetic in our current political climate, but that doesn’t make it any less the case. I have yet to meet a single “Palestinian Freedom” protestor who actually knew anything about the history of Israel and the 1948 war. They all seem like mindless zombie clones spouting the same old propaganda – completely oblivious to the historical reality. I’m not saying the Jews are blameless – good Lord, the treatment of the Palestinian people has been appalling! – But people need to have an appreciation for what’s actually been going on, and it isn’t anything like the “myth” that the modern leftist/conspiracy movement has presented.

I really want people to read about this conflict and come to their own conclusions. This demonization of either party needs to stop. Both sides did terrible things; both sides continue to do terrible things.
It needs to end, and It won’t end so long as we perpetuate violence with hatred.


[edit on 3-6-2010 by RedBird]

That's a good look at the history surrounding the creation of modern Israel. But what about what's happened since then?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/913b296ba9b1.jpg[/atsimg]

Oh, Israel that lets their women vote, and go to school. That lets people wear whatever clothes they want, and worship whatever God they choose. That offers the opportunities of capitalism to their citizens, and trades with the world.

And we should wonder that they prosper while the Palestinian territories - spurned and forgotten by their own Arab neighbors (who refused to accept their refugees when Israel did) languish in poverty?

You, my friend, need to read some real history, instead of the nonsense that the MSM puts out for no other reason than to make you mad.

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the middle east where Arabs have the right to vote? No other middle-eastern country is a real democracy. Israel is the only one.

Think about that the next time you champion that "Arab" (Not Palestinian) cause. The Arabs could have solved the Palestinian problem a long time ago, but they chose not to because they knew it would prove to be a long-term thorn in Israel's side. Israel spends more money every year helping Palestinians than all the Arab countries combined. To the Arabs, the Palestinians are just political leverage. It's them you should be mad at - no the Jews.

Get your facts straight.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe

EDIT: To specify that I find the image, not your post, as deceptive.

That map you gave shows 2 "phases" before the creation of Israel. Stages 1-2 of that picture are before the establishment of Israel in 1948.

PS: So in theory the true representation of land loss as a result of the creation of Israel beings at stage 3. Quite a difference when you compare idea A (stages 1-4) with idea B (stages 3-4) isn't it?

[edit on 3/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
That's a good look at the history surrounding the creation of modern Israel. But what about what's happened since then?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/913b296ba9b1.jpg[/atsimg]

Well what actually happened was that the UN proposed a partition state[resolution 181] in 47 with a UN mandate on Jeruzalem, the Jews accepted it but not the Arabs, they thought it would be fresh idea of attacking the jewish colonies and exterminating them..
And hamas still has that goal, thanks to the blockade that aint happening..

[edit on 3-6-2010 by Foppezao]

Originally posted by RedBird
You, my friend, need to read some real history, instead of the nonsense that the MSM puts out for no other reason than to make you mad.

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the middle east where Arabs have the right to vote? No other middle-eastern country is a real democracy. Israel is the only one.
...

Get your facts straight.

Wow, a little bit touchy there aren't you? I asked if you would comment on the map I posted. You tell me it's nonsense the MSM puts out? And no other Arab nation allows their people to vote? Most people know that's false.

Did I blow up your attempt at spinning your agenda? Seems like it.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


It's not deceptive at all. The map is clearly labeled and shows the land division in 1949.

reply to post by RedBird


Thank you for your views, it is nice to see someone not go down the route of us Brits being out to kill Jews since the 1920s as some sort of immigration policy.

I am tho surprised you missed out the historical impact of the SS Exodus.. and how it reverberates with the correct situation.

I for one, when considering both events am surprised the Israelis appear to follow the same path the British took in 1947..

One has to wonder why they would do that, given the grave historical importance of such events.

I would be nice to hear your comments on that.. what could be so important that the Israelis risk the level of condemation the British received in 1947 over the SS Exodus.

Do you feel as I that those who condemn the capture/boarding of the MV Mavi Marmara also condemn the Capture/boarding of the SS Exodus..

And flipping it the other way round, those who feel the MV Mavi Marmara should have the right to landfall also support the right of the SS Exodus to landfall..

What a tangled web has been woven.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


I believe it is deceptive. Why are those first two stages included in the picture? They both relate to a time before Israel was even created. Only the last two phases are relevant. Also, why is the area before labelled as "Jewish land"?

Regardless of whether you think the following website is bias, I recommend you read through the information from the following website
History of Israel and Palestine

Maybe it will allow you to see that there are at minimum two sides to every story.

[edit on 3/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by RedBird
Ok, so I've posted a lot of this thread before, but it seems important now to readdress some of this now. I see a lot of anti-Semitism

that's where i stopped reading.
you don't see anti-semitism, you see dissent and outcry towards the actions of the israeli government and how they think they can extort and threaten and fit cement shoes for anyone who doesn't bow before them, because they run their government like they're some mafia.
this is the majority of what you have been reading. there is an extremely explicit line between that, and outright, unaplogetic "anti-semitism" (which can be anything from not instantly forgiving jews for everything they do and let them walk over everyone, to to saying blatant racist and hateful things).

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by mythatsabigprobe

 

I believe it is deceptive. Why are those first two stages included in the picture? They both relate to a time before Israel was even created. Only the last two phases are relevant. Also, why is the area before labelled as "Jewish land"?

The first two stages are most likely there because the map would be incomplete without them. The map shows areas of occupation by the two different groups; (a) prior to partition, (b) the proposed partition, (c) the completed partition and (d) the changes today. I don't know how that can be construed as a deception, unless you are claiming the map is false?

The areas labeled as 'Jewish Land' are most likely areas of heavy Jewish settlements at the time.

Rubbish.. The world is outraged over the cold-blooded murder of innocent human beings whose only "crime" was / is caring for their fellow human beings.
By an arrogant, bloodthirsty Isreal. No amount of spin will change things MURDER IS MURDER. the world has grown sick of the genocidal rampage being conducted by isreal.

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
The first two stages are most likely there because the map would be incomplete without them. The map shows areas of occupation by the two different groups

Well, actually there are three types of groups identified. Palestine, Israel and Jewish land. Why are the last two used interchangeably? Does it not imply that Jewish land and Israel are the same? If Israel only came into existence in 1948, then why are they including phases that have nothing to do with Israel?

(a) prior to partition, (b) the proposed partition, (c) the completed partition and (d) the changes today.

Thanks for explaining that to me. Would you agree that the picture is presented in a fashion that suggests Israel has stolen all that previously "green" land? Why are the images presented in "stages"? To show that it is all part of pattern by any chance? I am suggesting that the first two are irrelevant but are placed there to make the "theft" seem much larger and worse than it actually was.

I don't know how that can be construed as a deception, unless you are claiming the map is false?

It is deceptive in how it presents Israel stealing Palestinian land. The maps are probably accurate, but they are combined closely with irrelevant information (p1-p2) on purpose to make the image as a whole seem more valid.

The areas labeled as 'Jewish Land' are most likely areas of heavy Jewish settlements at the time.

You could be walking a slippery slope here. Is the land Palestinian or Israeli because of the settlements that occupy the land, or the law that states which land belongs to who? At what point was this distinction made?

[edit on 3/6/2010 by Dark Ghost]