EDIT: Who controls our Presidents?

Reflecting on Reagan's passing, although I did not agree with him on many issues, I think he was a nice guy. I believe that he believed that what he was doing was right. Same with the current Bush. I shook his hand, in a long line, nothing personal, but I saw him banter with people, and he seemed like a nice guy. It seems like they really believe in what they say, although they are wrong. It seems as if they are being mislead. As if other forces are controlling their administration, using them to try to accomplish an agenda. As opposed to a Clinton, or a Carter. All of their mistakes seemed to be their own. I'm not trying to say who was the better President, but it seems to me, when the Republicans are in office, the President is duped into terrible positions, under the guise of trying to accomplish their goals. Now that Reagan has passed, everyone is reflecting on his presidency, and it seems to me that he was genuine in his passion in trying to do what was right for the American people, just as I think Bush believes, but is guided by evil people. I mean, Clinton, he dug his own grave with his sexual exploits. Carter, just could not work the system. But Reagan, Bush, and Bush, you can point to specific people who set them up for failure. There seemed to be so many forces that controlled them. On the surface you could say, big business for the Bushes, or an ideology for Reagan, but my question is this. Why does it seem like the Republicans in office are controlled by others, which lead to their downfall, and it seems that Democrats just trip under their own incompetence?

EDIT: The original title was "Reflecting on Reagan's passing" but Rant brought up a point about maybe it may be misleading. I trust his judgement.
[edit on 8-6-2004 by curme]


[edit on 8-6-2004 by curme]

the answer is simple, they're only human. we are imperfect and we often forget they are human beings. sometimes greedy ideological egotistical self serving human beings but these qualities can be found in all of us once in a while also.

its the only logical reason i can think of. they're just human.

This is just so sad (sniff-sniff). Maybe we can all commiserate and eat packets of that vegetable called "ketchup" like the poor do in the ghettoes.

Originally posted by Colonel
This is just so sad (sniff-sniff). Maybe we can all commiserate and eat packets of that vegetable called "ketchup" like the poor do in the ghettoes.

God, that made me laugh. THE EIGHTIES!!!

But Curme if I haven't just had a conniption and am reading your post correctly, "all Democratic failures are their own fault, but Republicans simply got tricked?"

There isn't an emoticon in existence that could do my belly roll justice right now.

Let me tighten my shot group. It seems that other forces control the Republican Presidents, misleading them into thinking that their beliefs are being served, and actually guiding them into certain beliefs. As opposed to Democratic Presidents, who are out of the loop of this controling force, and just flounder without a safety-net to protect them from themselves. For example: Clinton caused all of Clinton's problems. Cheney caused all of Bush's problems. The Bushes and Reagan believe what they were being told, but it seems that Clinton and Carter just weren't told anything.

Originally posted by Colonel
Maybe we can all commiserate and eat packets of that vegetable called "ketchup" like the poor do in the ghettoes.

That's kinda creepy, Colonel.
I was just having a discussion with a friend this evening about Reagan's passing
(as we noticed all the flags here in CLT are at half-mast)
and he went on an impressive cussing rampage that revolved entirely around the ketchup thing.
Then again, just like you, he didn't want to hear anything about the good things the man did either.
Just the ketchup.

Originally posted by curme
Let me tighten my shot group. It seems that other forces control the Republican Presidents, misleading them into thinking that their beliefs are being served, and actually guiding them into certain beliefs. As opposed to Democratic Presidents, who are out of the loop of this controling force, and just flounder without a safety-net to protect them from themselves. For example: Clinton caused all of Clinton's problems. Cheney caused all of Bush's problems. The Bushes and Reagan believe what they were being told, but it seems that Clinton and Carter just weren't told anything.

then wouldnt this suggest at least in part that their failures are more or less the result of the information being given to them more than them acting like maverick cowboys some have suggested? this doesnt excuse anyone but what i'm asking is this, how can anyone say its bush's fault or reagans fault if what they're acting on is bad information? wouldnt it really go back to these influences more than the president itself? so why the backlash against the people who are only acting on what they are being told rather than those who are telling the things the president is acting on?

if the president truly believes what he is doing is right but his actions are based on things being told to him (which is true for bush) then wouldnt it stand to reason we should blame those who are giving him bad information that help shape and make his decisions rather than blasting him over and over? in part i blame bush as he made this communication flow what it is. he is only given certain information, he claims to not read news papers or watch the news etc. which i feel puts him in the dark and at a disadvantage. it leaves him vulnerable to those who gives him his information.

But Curme if I haven't just had a conniption and am reading your post correctly, "all Democratic failures are their own fault, but Republicans simply got tricked?"

There isn't an emoticon in existence that could do my belly roll justice right now.

I'm trying to be diplomatic and give the side I don't agree with the benefit of the doubt. To shy away from party politics. That's why I didn't post this in the 'Mud Pit'. I am genuinely curious as if anyone else sees the Democratic Presidents failing by thier own personal accords, personal politics, decisions, and the Republican Presidents failing by the policies dictated by others, and if so, who are these others? Is it as innocuous as making a buck?

Originally posted by curme
The Bushes and Reagan believe what they were being told, but it seems that Clinton and Carter just weren't told anything.

If I understand you correctly, then I share some of your concerns that Democratic Presidents (in particular) are left out of the loop by some entities in the military and intelligence.

But then that's not their fault. And it serves to question the role some dark entities have played in swaying elections...

As in the Iran hostage crisis.

Originally posted by Colonel
This is just so sad (sniff-sniff). Maybe we can all commiserate and eat packets of that vegetable called "ketchup" like the poor do in the ghettoes.

Attn: MODS,
I wish to apologize now for my language, but this time the Prick has really PISSED me off. I understand any repricutions, but I have to say what is in me..............

Colonel,
Will I find you vile...this time you have crossed the line. Your name says it all Colon...which means ASS!!!!! A man who was electedText buy the American people has passed on. If you can't at the very least keep your left wing barbs out of it, then shut your #ING mouth. (Sorry MODS, but I'm pissed off) Whether you agree with the man or not, He was instrumental in bringing the collapse of the Soviet Union.

But I forgot your anti-American ASS is all for socialism and communism. Could it be that you can't get ahead on your own and feels the world owes you. Well the world don't owe you #!!!!! To disagree with someones policies is fine......I've disagreed with Clinton....And at the moment I REALLY DISAGREE WITH BUSH. But to take aman, who was re-elected, by a margin of 49 states to 1 goes to far with me. Did I agree with everything Reagan believed...NO!!. But I feel he did more for this country than any president since FDR. He stood up to the Soviet Union and in short to paraphrase told them to F.O.!! Whicj is what I tell you.

You rant and rave about the Repugnants... Did you ever consider they, with Reagan, saved your SORRY ASS from total nuclear inialation!!!

While I don't feel this a personal attack, the MODS may feel different. Sadly to say, I've agreed with some of the things you have said, but here...I just won't take it. America is a land of oppurtunity, if you can't get off your lazy ASS and take advantage of it. Then you have got what you deserve. This country wasn't built to be a free handout. It was built to help those who struggled, fought, climed there way up. Is America perfect...HELL NO!! Although I will bet the farm you and I have completely different ideas for the solution. But that is what this country was founded upon...THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE!!!!

But Ronald Wilson Reagan, as our former President,,,at the very least deserves some dignity. He was elected to office twice, and the second time by a landslide! And to you and the others who in this tragic moment, wish to undermind his contibution....Well I say you aren't Americans. AND COLONEL THIS GOES OUT TO ESPECIALLY YOU....IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE...THEN #ING LEAVE!

If I've offendended anyone but the Colonel with my diatribe....I APPOLOGIZE....I truly am sorry. But Colonel, if I have offended you then TOUGH #!!!!!!!!!!

COMMON SENSE RULES!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by CSRules
Attn: MODS,
I wish to apologize now for my language, but this time the Prick has really PISSED me off. I understand any repricutions, but I have to say what is in me..............

Wow. But how do you really feel?

This'll be heading off to the mudpit now.
It's not gonna be pretty.
Please remember to follow the rules.

Suggestion. And this is just a suggestion.

But maybe if this thread weren't titled like a memorium to Reagen rather then indicating what it's really about, which I think is discussing possible partisan covert influences and respective "falls" of Presidencies...

Then it not only wouldn't attract the "barbs" but their retorts.

Oh nevermind. It's already pitted. See what you did!

Grown up discussion over.

CSRules, if you really want to get steamed I suggest this thread: What the hell is all the crying and whining about...

Ketchup aint the half of it.

[edit on 7-6-2004 by RANT]

Originally posted by CSRules
But I forgot your anti-American ASS is all for socialism and communism. Could it be that you can't get ahead on your own and feels the world owes you.

But that is what this country was founded upon...THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE!!!!

Well I say you aren't Americans. AND COLONEL THIS GOES OUT TO ESPECIALLY YOU....IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE...THEN #ING LEAVE!

WARNING - COMPLETE MENTAL BREAKDOWN IN PROGRESS.

Holy # dude. Take a pill, or a drink, or a pill AND some drinks.

Geez. What are you talking about anyway? You derived all that crap from the tiny little post of Colonels?

I guess Common Sense does rule since you are bitching and telling people to leave if they don't like it here...

But wait... didn't you say this too?

But that is what this country was founded upon...THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE!!!!

I don't get you man. Is there a point? Or is your anger making you stupid.

Here's an idea, don't post when you're mad, it only makes you look dumb. I'll explain.

When men get angry, your body goes into, what they call, "Battle Mode", in which your body pushing blood to your body to get ready for physical excertion. This, needless to say, leaves your brain to go more on autopilot.

So, next time you get all in a tuffle and feel like disagreeing with someone, telling them to leave, and saying America was built on the ability to disagree, take some time to ask yourself...

How American are you, exactly?

You aren't one of those jingoist neanderthal Republicans are you? Own a truck? Like to hunt?

OOOOOO, wait. Is your favorite song "Have You Forgotten" by Darryl Worley?



Sorry. Please excuse my making fun of you...


I was mad.

Personaly I disagree with the basic premise of this thread, which is that the republican governments screwed up. While the trickle down theroy or "reganonmics" did not produce immediate results that you could point to almost every single econmics professor I know of feels that the booms of the late 80s and 90s would not have happened if the president had not taken the action he did. The fact is when a new economic plan is initiated it takes at LEAST 5-10 yrs for the results to be felt throughout the broader economy. If you ask me Clinton got the credit for other peoples successes (I.E. regan and bush) just as George W. is recieving the blame for clintons failures. as for the whole Iran-contra scandel I dont think they did anything wrong.