The Resurrection of Jesus.........

I have been thinking about it a lot lately, why do so many people believe in Christianity? I think it all boils down to Jesus� Resurrection from the dead.

Why you may ask well I look at it this way from the most basic point of view. If you want to pay pilgrimage to the prophet Muhammad, founder of Islam, you can find his grave in the city of Medina in Saudi Arabia. If you want to see Buddha you can see him too even though his parts are scattered throughout China, Burma, Cambodia and Thailand. If you want to see John Smith, founder of the Mormons, you can find him in Utah. But if you want to see the tomb of Jesus you can�t because Jesus was supposedly resurrected from the dead.

In addition to the above another reason that I think that Jesus really did rise from the dead is that because after his crucifixion his disciples were in a state of disarray. They were afraid for their lives and disappointed that there supposed savior was just an ordinary dead man. The Disciples of Jesus went fishing after his death, and not fishing for men, but fishing to make a living. They all figured that �Hey the parties over we have got to make a living somehow�. But then something changed in these men. They all went on a tear teaching about Jesus with a passion and all but one died horrible deaths because they would not stop teaching of Jesus.

To me this says that Jesus really must have overcome death and returned to earth. Why would 11 different men choose to die and die horribly for a false prophet? I mean Peter and Bartholomew were crucified upside down, Thomas was lanced and then burnt alive in an oven, and Matthew was axed to death with a Halberd. Even John the only one that did not die at someone else�s hands was thrown into a vat of boiling oil for believing in Jesus.

If he was just another dead man why did his closest companions at first turn their back on him, and then return to him with enough reverence to give their own lives for him? If he did not return from the grave then I don�t think it makes any sense.

Maybe they believed the teachings of Jesus just as strongly as a modern christian. I can see Jesus as an ancient cult leader who was very good at persuasion. Take David Koresh and Jim Jones for example. Weak minds fall for these guys, and if Jesus said he would be back, then by mere power of suggestion, they "SAW" him come back.

[edit on 7-6-2004 by Rev_Godslapper]

Jesus was no Jim Jones. His teachings surpass any that were before or since and there is no denying that fact. The only other figures who come close are the figures in major religions - that is why they are followed.

The Resurrection of a divine figure has suprisingly little to do with the formation of early Christianity. Many early Christians disputed the events surrounding the crucifixion and it wasn't until well after his death that he was given divine status. I believe that the teachings of Christ were the catalyst for spurring his supporters on. It was only later that divinity and immortality were used as an additional bolster, to prop up Constantine's empire, that the Orthodox view that we see today really took control.
The figure that we see today has been embellished with different characteristics over the centuries.

You also have to take a look at how Christianity came to be the major religion here in the West. Well into the 2nd millenia people were still worshipping pagan gods. The image of Christ had already been well formed when it was delivered to the West but even then it was a hard job to sell him to the masses. It wasn't until money came into the equation and this played a large part in converting the Western society - people were financially rewarded by the Church for spreading the message.

Incidentally, I recently visited a temple where Buddha's tooth was venerated. I find Buddhism to be extremely contradictory where worship is concerned. Although Buddhism's endgoal is Nirvhana, the vast majority of Buddhists I saw actually prayed to Buddha - nearly every house had a shrine and nearly every time we went out on the road the driver would stop at a roadside shrine and pray to Buddha for a safe journey. If he had achieved the state of Nirvhana, he wouldn't actually be able to hear them as he would be in a complete state of nothingness.

Finally, it should also be noted that Jesus was not the only resurrected religious figure in history. There were literally dozens of others. Some of them were crucified too.

yes the others were crucified, but are these other ones that were crucified from god or did htey just hold miraculous powers and were under satans influence?

perhaps they were saints, or martyrs, maybe cardinals.

As a little addendum to Leveller's post, there are also other religions with the trinity aspect and virgin birth. Some even had 12 disciples and performed miracles.

Well even though other religions may have the exact same premise as Christianity it is the idea that 11 different men first decided to abandon the faith and go back to their real jobs as it were and then to be so changed that they would give their life for what they just turned their backs on.

To do that would be very strange unless they saw or experienced something dramatic.

But if you want to see the tomb of Jesus you can�t because Jesus was supposedly resurrected from the dead.

Because he's God. God cant die...

Originally posted by Leveller
Jesus was no Jim Jones. His teachings surpass any that were before or since and there is no denying that fact.

And what teachings are those?

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself"?

I hope Jesus wasn't the first person in the history of the world to come up with that one.

I think you're missing something here Black Jackal. I believe the major reason that America is Christian (most of the world is actually of eastern religious persuasion if you look at population) is historical.

Christianity was the state religion of Rome at the time of its fall, as such much of the Roman Empire had been converted by the begining of the dark ages mostly just through soical influence. The remains of the empire became the Holy Roman Catholic Church, which held sway for much of the Dark Ages, Middle Ages and Age Of Imperialism in much of Western Europe. As the European empires began to spread their political web across the world so to did they bring their religion with them. What is now America was actually first settled by forruners of today's Christian Fundamentalists. Also I believe it has a good deal to do with the aggressive missionary work that the Chrisitans did for many centuries.

Now however, with all of the up and comming world powers in Asia I wonder if the politics of religion will begin to start favoring the Avatars of Shiva over the western prophets, and the writings of Zenists over the writings of the apostles.

~Astral

Oh and Illmatic67, so true, if you want to see the teachings that are very near those of Jesus look up the Vedas, Koran, Wiccan Reed, or many other religious teachings spaning the entire era of human existance. He was not alone in his message, he is just the one that some choose to hear.

May Peace Travel With You
~Astral

[edit on 7-6-2004 by The Astral City]

A challenge of sorts. You want to know something about Jesus? You want to find real truth that goes past human knowledge. You want to know about aliens and the future. Come on this isn't so scary. Do you really want answers? Ask Jesus to show you. I will warn you, by doing this you will embark on a extraordinary adventure. I know, you dont believe in all that because there is no proof. You want proof, look in the mirror, how is it that you are you. Maybe its too scary to actually find out the truth and for some that may be all there is to it. But for those who want an adventure, all you have to do is ask. How do you ask? Well thats a funny thing, for some reason all humans already know how to ask. Still unsure? Just ask yourself and wait for the answer. Its in there. Ever wonder why you have a little voice inside that tells you whats right and wrong. If you don't have all the answers, and if you can't recreate what is already here, just ask. So simple, but still so many refuse the truth that you already know.

The Astral City,

I am really not referring to the popularity of Christianity in the west but rather the reason why it came to be. Why people would let themselves be put to death for beleif in one man.

Come now, the early Calvinist ideology that popeye0314 and many other Fundamentalists spout is proven wrong every day by everyone of every religion that is not Christianity.

You contend that we are all latent Christians, I can tell you that I for one am NOT. I believe that Jesus was a very wise and powerful man, but a man none the less. (that does not mean we should not listen to his teachings though)

I believe in the Goddess and the power of all life, I do not have a little voice that tells me that supporting homosexual weddings, a woman's right to choose and birth control is wrong, quite the opposite my little voice tells me that it is right.

Now I ask you, how is it that your voice can tell you differently from mine? because it is an extension of the self, not Jesus.

We are not born Christian, we are born blank slates, we find what we become, and some convince themselves of the idea that what they embrace is retroactive, nothing more, nothing less

Blessed Be
~Astral

Does anyone know the time frame and whether all the holy men of the different major religions overlapped each other?
I remember reading a book about a guy named Babaji, i think it was...the theory has it that babaji was actually Christ, and all these different holy men. Babaji is similar to christ in that he never does really die, everytime he does he resurrected. The Indians have really embraced this figure. The most extraordinary thing about Babaji is all the stories about him are recent, I found one about his death in 2002. Everytime he dies, he appears as someone else. I would recommend looking up the name in Google: Babaji.

The Jews also believe Jesus was only a wise man, But how does Israel survive in todays world. It is the christians.

Yes, there are all kinds of thoughts and reasons to disprove Jesus, and that conversation could go on for ever. I will speak my opinon, but I wont try to argue and tell you that you are wrong. You are intitled to your opinion. My path led me to my current understanding , and that is of one true God and his son. Look at the thread on oobes from today, it will help clarify. I do believe that deception is everywhere, and the farther away from Jesus you get the less you will be able to hear him. Worship another God and you have asked him to leave. Satan will replace him in your life and thus you will hear of peace, harmony, energy flow, and astral travel. Read my oobe post and find the deception. The voice I spoke about was the same that you heard as a child, that told you right from wrong. Isn't it the world that overwhelms those simple right and wrong answers and brings us into a world of complexity. Truth isn't complex only lies. In my opinion.

Back to the original premise of this thread, Did "Iesous" (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef, the Galilean) rise from the dead (or, was "Iesoius" raised from the Dead)?

The problem of what was originally meant by "resurrection of Iesous" by the early disciples is made more complex partly because of the original language of the first believers in R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jeeezuzz") as the Messiah actually spoke a completely different language (Galilean Aramaic) from the text of the gospels (Koine Greek from around AD90), and they also had vastly different theological PRECONCEPTIONS than Greek Speaking converts.

The word for "risen" for example in Aramaic is the same word as "exalted": so what was probably a harmless little saying like: "The SON of MAN must be DEBASED before he is EXALTED" was translated into Greek as "The Son of Man must SUFFER before he is RISEN".

There is also the problem of "plays on words" in the Aramaic tradition. The Aramaic "Cevodah" means "SUFFERING": the Aramaic "Cavodah" means "GLORY".

So when you hear phrases like "The Son of Man must SUFFER before he ENTERS INTO HIS GLORY", the play on words in the Aramaic is completely lost both in Greek and in modern English Translations of the Gospels.

The idea of a RIGHTEOUS person not "tasting death" was a Jewish idea which we find in the dead sea scroll corpus, written 250 BC to AD 68, so these Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic documents were being written during part of the lifetime of "Jeeezuz" in Palestine.

The idea that IN THE LAST DAY (or "ON THE THIRD DAY" which was supposed to mean "Judgement Day") the RIGHTEOUS MARTYRS would be the first to "rise" has an early echo in Hezekiel chapter 37 (the Valley of Dry Bones), where YHWH commands Hezekiel the prophet to cast a spell over the bones of dead Jewish martyrs and cause them to put flesh back on them, and breathe into them the breath of life from the four winds, so that they can stand up and form a great "army" to fight the anti-Israelite invaders.

That the "King Messiah ben David "was supposed to rise from the dead was a myth which predated "Jeeezuz" as well as post-dated him well into the Middle Ages among the Rebbes.

We catch a glimpse of the Righteous Martyrs being Raised to Life in the Christian book of Revelation (i.e. the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite, written during the Jewish Revolt of AD 66 which predicted that Israel would win: NEWSFLASH: they lost !) See Revelation Chapter 11: 1-18 where the bodies of 2 slain Messiah type martyrs are miraculously raised back to life (i.e. resurrected) after 3 and a half days of lying in the gutter unburied and then raised back up to heaven (i.e. ascended).

Sound familiar?

The 3.5 days of course comes from the book of Daniel chapter 12 : "There shall be a Time, Two Times and Half a Time" before these things come to pass...

Some would claim that the Empty Tomb which the women found on "[Sunday] Morning, the 1st day of the [lit.] week[s]" was proof that the body of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef was somehow "resurrected" (whatever that means). All it really means is that the body was not there, and just because you have a missing corpse does not mean you have a resurrection. It means you have a missing corpse.

They never found Mozart's body either, and he was far more famous that Jesus was in his lifetime at the time of his death..!

It is possible that the women (whatever their exact identities were) who discovered the empty tomb drew conclusions of a"resurrection" from some Old Testament Prophecies...."remember how he used to say...." but even the gospel of John said, "but up until then she did not know the Saying which said that J. should rise from the dead...
" so somehow the prophecies about him "rising" weren't as well known before his death among the disciples--despite gospels like Mark sticking in such "prophecies" in three specific places in his gospel---almost as if they don't fit into the story.

Some of the OT prophecies include:

Exod 9:16 I have raised you up to show them my Power
1 Sam 2:8 he shall raise the Poor One up from the Dust
Isaiah 52:14 Behold my Servant will prosper: he shall be raised up and lifted high: yea he shall be highly exalted
Deut 18:15 YHWH shall Raise Up a Prophet like unto Me, Listen to Him!

and there are about 50 others that the early Christians used as proof texts for a resurrection of their Teacher ("thou wilt not allow your Holy One to see Corruption") etc.

The other linguistic problem is the word "opthe" in the gospels: the Greek for "was manifested untoo": people in the gospels don't see Iesous after the "resurrection", rather it is the passive tense of the Greek verb which is being used here: "he was seen by them", "he was manifested to them" which is different than saying "they saw him". Thus he only "appears" to those who are ready to "see" him, and no record of him "appearing" to non believers (i.e. "then he was manifested unto 500 brothers at once" Paul once wrote in I Corinthians although no one else apparently knows of this story of his).

The word "opthe" seems to be related to the verbs used in the Greek LXX version of Exodus chapter 3 with the burning bush "which appeared to Moses as fire but was not consumed..."

Bishop John Shelby Spong of NJ wrote a book in 1994 called Resurrection Myth or Reality. It briefly touches on these important linguistic points.

There are other problems with a clear understanding of what the early chuch regarded as Resurrection (not the least of which were the parallell resurrections of Attis and Mithra and other gods among the mystery religions which Christianity had to compete with for converts).

I'll save that for another posting

Originally posted by Leveller
Buddhism's endgoal is Nirvhana, the vast majority of Buddhists I saw actually prayed to Buddha - nearly every house had a shrine and nearly every time we went out on the road the driver would stop at a roadside shrine and pray to Buddha for a safe journey. If he had achieved the state of Nirvhana, he wouldn't actually be able to hear them as he would be in a complete state of nothingness.

Nirvana and Void are two different things. Nirvana, through western eyes, is often described as the state of bliss and it is, but not in the way that we are lead to believe. Nirvana is actually the knowledge of and acceptence of Absolute Truth. It is the realization that everything is connected, that you are everything (not as a part, but rather as a wave is to the ocean) and that you are liberated by understanding that you are in control of yourself and, in turn, in control of everything.

The Void, on the other hand, is what is ultimately strived for, to actually become the knowledge of Nirvana. It is both devoid of existence as well as containing everything from existence. It is the discarding of duality that can not be achieved while inside of Existence.

One is the only real number.

Edit: Forgot one of my points!

Praying to the Buddha is ridiculous if you ask me and lowers Buddhism to the level of a control religion. Even Siddhartha Gautama once stated that if you were ever to pass Buddha on the road that you should kill him. The Buddha is actually an concept and not an real person. This seems that one of the many hang-ups that western civilization seem to have about this way of thinking.

[edit on 15-6-2004 by Jonna]

it all boils down to that.

either you believe jesus conquered death and rose or you dont.

that is THE foundation of the faith in Jesus Christ as messiah, that he died for our sins and ROSE from death, conquering death once and for all.

i believe it.