Revelation; The Sixth Seal

reply to post by DeadSeraph

Frankly, this is one of the oldest, most unanswerable, conundrums in Christian theology.
Freewill or Predestination? In Paradise Lost, arguing about it is one of the ways the demons spent their time in Hell;
"...and found no end, in wandering mazes lost"

In a nutshell, the situation is this.
It is clearly shown in many places in the Bible that God wants us to choose him rather than turn away from him. That involves a decision.
It also appears from many places in the Bible that God is the one who chooses us.
They seem incompatible, but there's no getting away from the fact that they're both there.
We seem to be stuck with both of them being true at the same time.

If we get away from the theory and stick to practicalities, both statements are useful.
The statement that God wants us to choose him gives us a decision we can make.
The statement that God chooses us is really there to give us the confidence that he will never desert us.
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful- for he cannot deny himself".

reply to post by DISRAELI



My response to the claims made about the year 2012 was that I could see no prophetic significance in the date.
This position seems to have been vindicated.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Frankly, this is one of the oldest, most unanswerable, conundrums in Christian theology.
Freewill or Predestination? In Paradise Lost, arguing about it is one of the ways the demons spent their time in Hell;
"...and found no end, in wandering mazes lost"

In a nutshell, the situation is this.
It is clearly shown in many places in the Bible that God wants us to choose him rather than turn away from him. That involves a decision.
It also appears from many places in the Bible that God is the one who chooses us.
They seem incompatible, but there's no getting away from the fact that they're both there.
We seem to be stuck with both of them being true at the same time.

If we get away from the theory and stick to practicalities, both statements are useful.
The statement that God wants us to choose him gives us a decision we can make.
The statement that God chooses us is really there to give us the confidence that he will never desert us.
"If we are faithless, he remains faithful- for he cannot deny himself".

edit on 6-3-2012 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

"If you love something, set it free ... if it comes back to you, it's yours, if it doesn't, it never was."

I have been considering the role of bloodlines recently...

reply to post by DISRAELI

Hi Disraeli

I see you’ve pointed out some of the original Hebrew prophetic source material used by the writer(s) of the Apocalypse (c. 69 CE) in Rev. chapter 6:12 ff ref: Judgment of Yisro’el during 1st failed Jewish War against Rome –

“And when the Ram opened the 6th Seal, lo, I saw: A Great Earthquake
Lo, the the Light of the Sun began to darken ,
Even to the blackness of Saq Cloth :
And behold, the Moon was changed to the colour of fresh Blood
And I looked, and lo, the Stars of Heaven fell to the earth
Even like ripe Figs are shaken to the ground by a stiff Wind.

Then lo, the Heavens started to roll themselves up
Even as a Scroll is tightly rolled up after reading
And the Mountains & Islands began to sink away from their places :
Then the Rulers occupying the Land hid themselves in the Cliffs
Along with all of their Captains & Foot-Soldiers
And men both slave & free began to climb into the rock Clefts.

And lo, from their hiding places, they screamed in Terror [to their gods], saying
Hide us from the Face[s] of Him who sits upon the Throne
And save us from the Terror of his Great Wrath which is come upon us!
For lo, the Day of YHWH hath arrived at long last
Wherein who shall be able to stand before his face[s]
Even in the Great & Terrible Day of his Coming ? “

The writer of ‘Revelation’ might also have been working from a secondary source as well viz. the Book of the Words of Henoch, Son of Jared –– notice how it uses the same kind of theme, phrases, images and Midrashic borrowing of the same doom and gloom images from the Hebrew ‘prophetic’ texts e.g. Joel 2:31, Proto-Isaiah 34:4, Nahum 3:12, Proto-Isaiah 2:9, Proto-Isaiah 13:6-11 & Malachi 3:2 etc etc)

The 1 Henoch collection was compiled c. 300 BCE) and was found among the oldest of the Dead Sea Srolls and in the same 6-line stanzas (Qinah Lament Metre) of the ‘Book of Revelation’

The Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch son of Jared to all the sons of light in the last Days.

The Days are nigh when YHWH the Mighty EL of Yisro'el, shall appear
Yea, he shall suddenly come forth in his Camp
Even from his holy habitation in the Heavens :
Lo, he shall be manifested in the strength of his Power
And shall march with his Feet upon Mount Sinai
With all of his hosts sitting at right Hand of his Power.

(This 6-line stanza was quoted in Jude 1:14)

For behold, he comes with Myriads of his Holy Ones with him ,
To execute judgment upon the sinners
And to destroy the evil ones from the face[s] of the Land [of Yisro'el] :
And in that day when he destroys the Wicked,
He shall condemn all the sinners for all their acts
even what the ungodly have committed against his Elect [Ones].

Then all flesh which dwells upon the Earth shall fear
Yea, the Watchers shall all shake with Terror
For lo, trembling shall seize all the Holy Ones of Heaven :
The lofty mountains shall shake in that day,
And behold, the high hills shall all be brought low
Yea, they shall all melt like a honeycomb in the flame.

The whole Earth shall be rent in twain iin that Day
when all things breathing upon the earth shall perish
even while The Judgment shall come upon all sinners :
Yea, a terrible Plague shall be sent down to them from heaven
And lo, it shall attack all the wicked that occupy the Land [of Yisro'el]
In order that his Vengeance might be executed upon them.

Then the wicked ones shall be hurled into the Firey Judgment
And shall every one of them perish utterly in the Flames
When all the sinners shall be annihilated in the Day of Vengeance :
Yea, they shall all perish in the General Condemnation
And shall each one of them fall by the Sword of his Fury
And with the Blasphemers they shall be cut down by the edge of the Blade.

Then shall follow the Great & Terrible Judgement
Which shall be carried out by his Angels of Vengeance
Who stand ever by his side in the eternal Heavens :
Yea, they shall pronounce all the Decrees of Condemnation
Against all the sinners & unrightous ones upon the Land
even they who deign Oppression & Violence against his Chosen Ones.

And when his angels of Destruction will carry out his Sentence against them
Lo, the sinful among the sons of Adam will tremble in terror
Yea, all the unrighteous shall be confounded in that Day :
Even those who despised His Covenant of Peace
they shall run to and fro in disarray and panic
Even when the blasphemers of haShem start to perish.

For on that Day the Cycles of the Seasons shall cease altogether
Yea, the Sun & Moon will abandon their accustomed orbits
And shall remain motionless in their places in the Firmament.
Even the Great Constellations shall veer from their paths
Yea, they shall abandon their former Motions in the Heavens
And shall seek new Courses never before taken ...


Nothing new under the sun !!

reply to post by Sigismundus

In this whole Revelation series of threads, I've been very conscious of the various "echoes" of Old Testament passages, and I've been deliberately using them to throw light on what the writer was getting at.

A reminder because of recent interest in Revelation

(Reply)



REVELATION 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
............
............
Maybe God doesn't have the Lord Jesus in view, with all of the SEALS................Humanity will die in less then about 40 years..............sometimes it is better to let humanity die and pass away.

God doesn't "kill saints", or the faithful, who is god glorifying by opening the SEALS? If humanity will die naturally, and that is the gospel's law, with mankind having no judgment other then a moral conviction, then is god given the glory? The answer is yes, God does not need to "touch this earth", to complete the gospel's law. God doesn't have to use this generation.

(because mankind in the gospel's natural law, as a result of its sin, will die blind and dumb...........then anyone or any "son of man" disturbing that process is an enemy of god, and therefore the SEALS are ascribed to them)

(humanity doesn't have the corpse of moses, in its suicid* pleasure, and that completes the gospel's law in how humanity will die with nothing...............humanity does not have a "will to live" very simple.............the earth has a propensity to unified field, and "dead flesh" suppresses that field, this is also incremental..............everything will be resolved soon)

edit on 19-11-2020 by memeray because: (no reason given)

a reply to: memeray
This thread is part of a longer series.
The overall message of the book is that the events called forth by the opening of the seals. and the later catastrophes, are God's "vindication" of the church by judging those who are persecuting the church, and the whole process is comleted by the Return of Christ and the final judgement over the last few chapters.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: memeray
This thread is part of a longer series.
The overall message of the book is that the events called forth by the opening of the seals. and the later catastrophes, are God's "vindication" of the church by judging those who are persecuting the church, and the whole process is comleted by the Return of Christ and the final judgement over the last few chapters.

God doesn't need to, "kill saints or angels", to find "vindication" or to reveal wickedness in the church.............God doesn't do Unclean Works as a Basis of Judgment, no where in the gospel.............The "SEALS", are "oxymorons", meaning its not a work God performs, or it is a work God gave someone else the choice to perform, or it is Satan's Natural State and no value, of killing saints, killing angels, and killing god.
............
............
............
HOWEVER.............when god talks about the "plagues" or "seven plagues", God doesn't described the work of "killing saints or killing angels"..............that is a big difference.............covid-19 or a plague is not entitlement or an association to the "SEALS", not necessarily.
(a blind and dumb death for humanity..........is not that bad at all, there are many people being saved, going through their daily lives, very mundane, and that is entirely god glorifying)

originally posted by: memeray
.God doesn't do Unclean Works as a Basis of Judgment, no where in the gospel........

The way God acts in judgement is one of the standard themes of the Bible. If you want a gospel reference, see what Jesus says in response to being told about the tower of Siloam.

Your sweeping statements are not based on detailed study, so I won't give them a detailed response.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: memeray
.God doesn't do Unclean Works as a Basis of Judgment, no where in the gospel........

The way God acts in judgement is one of the standard themes of the Bible. If you want a gospel reference, see what Jesus says in response to being told about the tower of Siloam.

Your sweeping statements are not based on detailed study, so I won't give them a detailed response.

Ezekiel 48:35...........A Tower with a Measurement of 18, or, jehoiachin's contradiction.

In the Old Testament, God used, Angels to Cleanse the Temple, sure that is not hard to find at all.

In the New Testament, God did not use any Angels to Cleanse the Temple with Jesus and his 8th Day Sabbath, it was not a work God would Perform, anymore, that is mankind's responsibility................how much mankind is willing to suffer before it dies in about 40 years, then we'll have to see.

Because God did not use Angels to Cleanse any Temple in the New Testament...............does not mean that God is now going to "kill saints, and kill angels" (humanity...is not free from sin in god's eyes, and those genetic lines, don't have a legal right to live)................Humanity is not entitled to a judgment, based on its dead flesh accusation, and that means God has scaled back his activities..............the argument of "SEALS" does not apply to humanity.................God does not do Evil..........if God was speaking to a son of man under joseph, then that is a form of rebuke.

Planet Earth..............Planet Jupiter is associated with the son of man, and reconciliation, not Planet Earth, mankind has to answer its accusation.

This series was being run ten years ago.
Perhaps it is now becoming topical again.