what did the founding fathers really believe?

people love to bring up what they supposedly thought in order to make an argument.
the question is, what did they really believe?
an example of this is the thought that they strived for a christian nation.
i've been studying this idea for awhile, and have come to the conclusion it is just not so. here are some quotes to explain my belief.



"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

"As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

"I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten...The delusion...on the clause of the Constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favourite hope of an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own...the returning good sense of our country threatens abortion of their hopes and they (the preachers) believe that any portion of power confided to me (such as being elected president), will be excerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: FOR I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN."
-Thomas Jefferson, personal letter to Benjamin Rush (all-caps are also on Jefferson memorial)

"Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland's question why the Ten Commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England we may say they are not because the never were."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction, at length,...that Christianity is part of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is inconrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed...What a conspiracy this, between Church and State. Sing Tantarara, rogues all, rogues all. Sing Tantarara, rogues all!"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, 6/5/1824 The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.

-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, undated

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?

-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.

-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?

-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.

-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816


this is just one example, what are others?

I don't always agree with John Adams' way of thinking.

But I do LOVE:

Patrick Henry Quotes

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?"
Patrick Henry

"Fear is the passion of slaves."
Patrick Henry

"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it."
Patrick Henry

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."
Patrick Henry

"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience."
Patrick Henry

"I know of no way of judging the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry

"I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past."
Patrick Henry

"If this be treason, make the most of it!"
Patrick Henry

"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"
Patrick Henry

"Perfect freedom is as necessary to the health and vigor of commerce as it is to the health and vigor of citizenship."
Patrick Henry

"The Bible is worth all the other books which have ever been printed."
Patrick Henry

"The great object is that every man be armed."
Patrick Henry

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."
Patrick Henry

"This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed."
Patrick Henry

"We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of Nature has placed in our power... the battle, sir, is not to the strong alone it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave."
Patrick Henry

"When the American spirit was in its youth, the language of America was different: Liberty, sir, was the primary object."
Patrick Henry

This guy is my idea of a "Founding Father".

reply to post by havok


great quotes, great man.

another is the good ol' right to bear arms.
obviously, in thier day, they were not thinking about the automatic weapons and 50 cal sniper rifles of today.
does this mean that technically, they were only talking about cap and ball?

reply to post by rubbertramp


They had the same differences in opinion that we have today. Some would pass for what we would call "liberal" and some would pass for what we would call "conservative." It would be incorrect to assume that everybody who signed the Declaration of Independence or who was at the Constitutional Convention agreed on every point.

For example, let us take the issue of sexual morality. There were some founding fathers who would have been prudish. They would take the stance sex was something that should only occur within marriage. Then there was Ben Franklin who was tri-sexual...because he would try anything sexual.

I have tried to point this out so many times to people here. The "Goddies" will froth at the mouth while attacking you. The Founding Fathers were not Christian at all.The US is not a Christian but a secular nation with its base in freedom not God. Your belief systems are the cause of the first freedom you give away. The right of self-determinism.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


You forgot the mistresses that many of these men had, specially slaves.

Still what the founding Fathers really believe? in a land far apart from restrictions and inequality.

But stupid human being we are, they were way ahead of us in their time and they still are. . .

We just let our nation fall into slavery once again we tax payer are nothing but slaves and servants.

Can I ask ... what makes the Founding Fathers different from those British colonial settlers in what is now USA, American I guess, but the ones who were content to remain under the colonial system or perhaps who thought it could be reformed (perhaps in the way Canada or Australia progressed).

It's strange. I've spoken to Brits who see the American War of Independence as being Brit versus Brit, almost like a civil war, but where the British victors had a complete mindflip and created this new nation, nationality etc. It seem such an odd thing to do, as I look at it with 2010 eyes.

Why did they do that ?

Sorry if it seems a daft question.

reply to post by damwel


Europeans started immigrating to the new land for a lot of reasons. The primary reason was to get away from religious persecution. With your remark it seems clear to me that one can never flee from religious persecution. Once the so called founding father's, or anyone for that matter, establishes a government the freedoms of the citizens are hindered thereof.

reply to post by Conclusion


yet, while fleeing persecution of themselves, there brought horrible persecution with them, and many fought to hang on to it.
slavery

here's a few more quotes, just cause' i like them.


thomas jefferson
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."
- to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814
.


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
- "Notes on Virginia"
.


"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
- letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787
.


"It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet that the one is not three, and the three are not one. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests."
- to John Adams, 1803
.


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
- to Baron von Humboldt, 1813
.


"On the dogmas of religion, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind."
- to Carey, 1816
.


"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself."
-in his private journal, Feb. 1800
.


"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism, he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." - to Carey, 1816
.


"The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."
- to Story, Aug. 4, 1820
.


"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man. But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin.
1. That there are three Gods.
2. That good works, or the love of our neighbor, is nothing.
3. That faith is every thing, and the more incomprehensible the proposition, the more merit the faith.
4. That reason in religion is of unlawful use.
5. That God, from the beginning, elected certain individuals to be saved, and certain others to be damned; and that no crimes of the former can damn them; no virtues of the latter save."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a common censor over each other. Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Notes on Virginia"
.

"Creeds have been the bane of the Christian church ... made of Christendom a slaughter-house."
- to Benjamin Waterhouse, Jun. 26, 1822
.


"Let us, then, fellow citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of a bitter and bloody persecutions."
.


"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
.


"It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."
.


"The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823
.


"They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
.


"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
.


"We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."
.


"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoeve

[edit on 26-4-2010 by rubbertramp]

If most of the Founding Fathers were, in fact, Freemasons, then they believed in a Supreme Being, aptly titled, "Grand Architect of the Universe". They stood against religious intolerance.

I don't think you can necessarily make a claim that they founded the country as a secular nation - How would you explain the numerous references to God throughout the political writings, buildings, coinage of the Founding Fathers? In the early American pioneering days, much of the education involved reading from the Bible. It is only in recent decades that our political system has removed references to God.

Deists mostly... not Christians.

A extraordinary history of america, written by a smart fellow named William James, but never published... (when you read it you will see why...) is based on indian wampum (in part) - This is a Third-Eye-Opener to read...share these truths with a friend. The Tribes and the States LINK


On the Jefferson Memorial are letters, chiseled in the 24" high stones... around the inside of the dome.

Those words of Thomas Jefferson, cut into 24" letters, that were chosen to be chiseled....for future generations to marvel and be reminded thereof.....were from a letter from TJ to the leadership of the Anglican Church...

to wit:

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny imposed upon the mind of man"

[edit on 26-4-2010 by seataka]