Personal Debt. Should I worry about it?

I once was young and ignorant. Got married to a gold digging materialist. Tried to save my house after divorce and fell into debt. I recommend paying it off for the piece of mind. The greatest weapon you have to a debt collector is big legal words and knowledge. Most are call center jocks that can only follow scripts. I have eliminated (yes eliminated) debt just by challenging the debt in the first place and the collectors legal status to collect.

First. Deny you are the person that they think they are calling. Provide them with zero info other than your legal name and your address. Secondly, you have to demand all further conversations to be written and threw the mail. All further communication needs to be certified through the US postal system with return receipts. Get the receipt of the person who actually signed for your letter.

If you get calls after that then depending on state(in US) you can have them reported for harassment.

When they send you a letter and there is inconsistent data to match you to who they think they are looking for then you can fight it. I know people as well as myself that have the same name as someone else who has debt that is not your own. Old people and uneducated people fall for debt collecting scams all the time.

Send a certified letter stating you not the person they are looking for. You have to send all your written correspondence by certified mail. Collection agencies have time limits to respond in most cases and if missed it can destroy their case against you and the ability to collect a debt.

If the collectors are right in their game and you know they are and you know it is your debt then you still have options. In most cases the collector has to be licensed in the state you reside in to collect a debt from you. In you certified letter you have to challenge them to prove that they are licensed in your residing state. If they are not then they cannot collect or harass you.

If the collectors at this point have the right person and are licensed in your state then you have to send them a certified letter proving the actual debt is yours. Account numbers, dates, original debtor. If the debt has been sold and resold to various collection agencies sometimes the original info is lost. If they cannot legally prove the debt is yours then you have the upper hand on them.

Your best bet in fighting debt is to arm yourself with information. Get a phone recorder and when they tell you it is a recorded call, respond back that you also are recording the call for legal purposes. Find out the state regulations and laws on debt collecting agencies. Each state has different laws so what I have stated only applies to my exact circumstance when I was residing in Arizona. Using the above info I eliminated two collection attempts.

I also used the same approach to clean my credit reports up from the three credit reporting agencies. Certified letters challenging each issue separately for each agency. Again they have time limits to respond back once they get your certified letter. You will spend a small fortune at the post office but if the info the agencies have is incorrect, it is your responsibility to clean your record. It won’t go away by its self. You don’t have to argue on the phone once you demand they stop and continue through the mail. It is far easier to challenge someone when you can sit down on your own terms and write out what you need to say.

I stumbled across this statement. Maby this work world wide or maby, just maby only in the US.

Whenever you receive a demand for payment from a Bank, Building Society, or Loan Company, all you need to do is to respond correctly, the drift of which is to request them to provide three things:
1. Validation of the debt (the actual accounting), and

2. Verification of their claim against you (a sworn affidavit or even just a signed invoice - signed is important!), and

3. A copy of the contract binding both parties.

Write to say you would be happy to pay any financial obligation you might lawfully (important word!) owe as soon as these three documents are received.

They can't validate the debt because they never sustained a loss.

They can't verify any claim against you - as a flesh and blood human being with a living soul - they will be attempting to talk to your legal fiction NAME.

They can't produce a copy of the contract because a lawfully binding one doesn't exist.

What exists is an unenforceable unilateral contract.

What they refer to as 'your contract with us' is not a valid, bilateral, agreement - since the four requirements of a lawful, binding contract were not met on the Credit Card (or whatever) 'application', namely:

1. Full Disclosure (we are not told that we are actually creating the credit with our signature), and

2. Equal Consideration. They bring nothing to the table, hence they have nothing to lose. ("Consideration" means 'something of value', e.g. money, or an item of value - something they are trading for your signature/promise - something they have to lose), and

3. Lawful Terms and Conditions (they are based upon fraud), and

4. Signatures of BOTH Parties/Meeting of the Minds (Corporations can't sign because they have no Right, or Mind, to contract, because they are soulless legal fictions)

Credit Cards and Loans are win/win for them, and lose/lose for everyone else - it is the slickest con game on the planet.

More detail, with regard to Mortgages (which are slightly special - because dwellings can have encumbrances attached), can be found here

But you have to know, and realise all this. If you don't they will steamroller you. They will try every trick in the book, because it is their life-blood.

Stick to your guns.

ENSURE THAT EVERY LETTER YOU SEND CLEARLY STATES "Without Prejudice", which means that you reserve all Rights in law, and yield to no contract unless it is lawful by virtue meeting the four conditions above.

Conditions (1) and (2) can never be met. Simply because they never have any money to lend in the first place. Banks are not allowed, by law, to lend any Depositor's money. Loan Companies do not have any Deposits anyway. Therefore they can only ever lend what you gave to them in the first place, based on your signature on the Loan Application.

THEY LEND BACK TO YOU - WHAT YOU GAVE TO THEM - VIA YOUR SIGNATURE/PROMISE!

They will get the message, because they know they are operating fraudulently.



But what about my Credit Rating?

IN THEORY, since you have no judgment against you, your Credit Rating should remain intact.

(I did say … "In theory")



My son says "Well, yes, but two wrongs don't make a right"

Banks/Building Societies/Loan Companies have never had, nor ever will have, any money to lend you … except your own (created by your signature on a Promissory Note - called a Loan Agreement).

So they con you into paying them in order to use your own money.

The 'wrong' is that they charge you for the use of your own money. It is 'right' not to let them play this confidence trick on you.


to be continued...

...If you do (somehow) end up in court

You will be asked your name, or whether you name is … e.g. Veronica Chapman.

The correct reply is "If I tell you my name, will I have a contract with you?"

If the answer is "No", then you say "I'm a flesh and blood human being, with a living soul, and commonly called Veronica" (Obviously substitute your own Given Name - or use mine which would constitute a fraud … your choice). If they continue to use your legal fiction NAME (e.g. 'Ms. Chapman'), do your best to ignore it, until they make it clear they are addressing you, and then repeat "I'm sorry, were you addressing me? I'm commonly called ".

If the answer is "Yes" then you can say "Then you need to provide me with FULL DISCLOSURE, some CONSIDERATION, the LAWFUL TERMS AND CONDITIONS, and we would both need to SIGN. Is that not so?".

Either way, you would be seriously looking at "Case Dismissed"!

If they threatened 'Contempt of Court' (a trick they often use), then the response is "Is that CIVIL or CRIMINAL contempt?".

DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ELSE UNTIL YOU RECEIVE AN ANSWER. (Do not be sucked into filling in 'empty silence').

If the answer is "Criminal", then the response is "Who makes the CLAIM, what is the CRIME, and who is the INJURED PARTY?". If they say "The COURT makes the CLAIM", the response is "You know that the court is not a human being, and that only human beings, blessed with a living soul, can make a CLAIM!".

If the answer is "Civil", then the response is "Please explain the CONTRACT. Will you provide FULL DISCLOSURE, what is the CONSIDERATION, and will you provide the SIGNATURE of a human being with a living soul?"

(I wish I had known about this when I was young!)

(By the way, they generally hate LIPs - Litigants In Person - who actually know the ropes. On the other hand, if you stick to your guns, there's not a whole lot they can do about it. But they are sharks, and will try every trick.

reply to post by silent thunder


1. Lower the interest rate.

2. Raise home prices so the monthly payment would be the same (greed).

3. Sell homes to people that could not afford them and give them weird loans (ex: interest only) which would adjust up to a higher price in later years.

4. Double+ the price of gas and increase all costs that it affects.

5. Send jobs to other countries to complicate the amount of rising unemployment.

6. Take back large numbers of homes (forclosure) and build more rental properties.

Do you really believe these people are going to be gung-ho on repaying their credit card debt to the same type of corporations that placed them in their financial situation?

Many states have laws that forgive debt a set amount of time after it is sent to collections - I suggest you look it up.

A credit card is unsecured debt, period.

You can get away with it until you decide to purchase a house.

Then, when the bank or whoever is going to give you a loan checks your credit, all the debt that you owe the collectors will show up.

Then you're over a barrel. If you want the loan, you'll have to pay the debt and all the fees.

Or, you could try to settle way before you ever try for a loan and may get off easy but you need a letter that says you paid the debt if full.

You'll probably have to send copies of that letter(s) to the credit scoring entities so it gets on your record.

It's a tough long term route if you decide to go that way. Some time down the road, your past may come up and haunt you.

So I don't like some of the comments in this topic. Some of them sound as if anyone who doesn't pay their debt is a deadbeat freeloader. I have to ask if you took a look around at the current economy lately before making that judgment.

Up until July of last year, I had a well paying job and was having no problem paying my debts. I had a new car, insurance, 2 credit cards, and school loans and I was having no problem whatsoever paying them off.

In June I had to make on of those "emergency purchases" people talk about when dealing with credit and I racked up close to $4000 on my one credit card. Not by most favorite moment in my life, but I had it covered.

Who was I to know that come the next month I would lost that job and spend the next year searching frantically for one to no avail. Meanwhile, my credit cards began racking up late payments and interest charges and there was nothing I could do. Oh, and just to make the cake even better - they raised interest rates by about 10% right about this time and there is nothing I could do about it.

Somehow, I have managed since then to pay my car payment in my insurance so that I am able to drive to my self employment when I make just enough to cover those two expenses. The credit cards, who having talked to showed no sympathy, can eat me. They keep sending me offers to pay off the value for less but guess what: no money = no money, if if it is less. Sometimes they will be even so gracious to offer me payments of just $20-$50 a month to pay it off... but guess what again - the card itself builds up $100 in interest each month off the total due. They informed me that even if I took the plan, the interest would still acrue.

Do you know what I say to that? I say eff the credit card companies. If they actually showed some kind of sympathy and actually tried to work with me on this, maybe slash that interest rate, maybe try to understand my situation of unemployment for over a year - WITH NO unemployment benefits - then maybe we can talk. MAYBE we can say that I owe them money. MAYBE, someday, they will get what I owe them.


Recognize, that my story is not unique. This is thousands, possible millions of people who have bought into the credit scheme that government has pushed on us, and now more and more people are going to be literally UNABLE to pay. That isn't to say that there isn't freeloaders out there who are well off and just won't pay for the hell of it - there are - and there always will be. But right now, under the circumstances we are in with the economy and job market - I believe it is safe to say that the majority of people who aren't paying or who WON'T pay - are honest, hard working people just trying to get by.



As far as my credit score is concerned, I could care less. I'm not going to base my life around an imaginary number even if it means that I can't live in luxury until I earn it. Besides, once the economy collapses once and for all - I'm pretty sure people aren't going to be too worried about mine or anybody else's credit rating.

Some good replies on here and interesting to see the "Freeman" perspective and US regulations, treacherous routes, I advise to know this stuff, discern, research and until you get the actual "Act" and read it don't believe websites and certainly never pay anyone to clear your debt. But defend yourself and your rights, we give much to much away.

Apparently here in the UK debt collection agencies have set up sister companies, they bully and harass people who have no legal obligation to pay, then when they realise they may not be able to bully the person any more they pass the details to the other company that contacts them claiming they can get debts written of, for %cut of the total debt.

Some way they will get thier pound of flesh !!

www.opsi.gov.uk...

www.oft.gov.uk...

I don't have anything to own for anyone to take away and i dont plan on buying anything, I am fine and living happy with my minimum paying job, i'm not looking to own anything before i die, and i wont be having kids. i don't want to take out a loan. It seems all the advice im getting when in reference to pay off my debt is because i wont be able to buy a hosue, or buy a car, or take out a loan,, i dont want to do any of these things. all this other shiz, i'm not materialistic and don't wish to own anything, I dont think i'm going to pay of fmy debt anymore.

[edit on 22-4-2010 by hautmess]

reply to post by hautmess


only if you hear talk of them re attaching the US Dollar to GOLD.
if you hear them udder just a hint of this, expect they will, now
looking at history - 98% devaluation of the dollar, from $35 per T.oz.
looking at the charts the lose and gold has more than 8 folded already and 8 isnt a stopping point - if 10 then gold would be around 1500$ T. oz.
so they are going to lock gold to the dollar at 1500$ per T oz. or not,
if they are going to this is where they would act. and freeze it, just like they did in 1935 I think, banking holiday and when it opened gold was revalued.

Here is something I do not understand whatsoever:

If I check (note: check) to see if I can get credit, but do not take it, this is recorded.

If I check again about credit, but do not take it, this is recorded.

If I keep checking, but don't take it, it will eventually count against me.

Equally, if I check to see if I can get credit, and credit is refused (note: I'm still not actually trying to take it out, only check to see if I can get it) this also counts against me.

HOW??????????

I'm in the UK.

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


Thus is the monster of the credit industry. Hidden under the guise of helping people to spend without having, they are a beast within themselves, hell bent on using any scheme to make more money themselves and prevent risk factors from taking theirs.

The whole industry is broken and corrupt. What more could you expect?

reply to post by mirageofdeceit


Checking is one thing but applying for credit is another, when you fill in an application you are entering into a negotiation with the lender, to protect themselves, they perform a credit check on you. This is recorded and can effect your credit rating.

If you want to know your credit rating you can check as often as you like with a credit reference agency, its even free for the 1st 30days. You can check that as often as you like with no adverse effect on your credit.

Not saying the system is right, operate as little with it as possible, less debt & you have less chance of needing credit or credit scores.

In Canada you can go to a credit counsellor and they can talk to your debtors and have payments significantly reduced. And if the creditors refuse to take the offer from the credit councellor, they don't get dick and the counsellor spreads the money they got you to agree to pay to those companys that accept the deal. If you still can't keep up then you declare bankruptcy, your credit rating will be bad but if your already at this point, chances are your rating is bad by now anyway. In Canada, once you go to a credit councellor or declare bankruptcy Debtors are not allowed to harrass you, you might be surprised how fast the phonecalls stop. If they do call you, just tell them to contact your credit councellor Also we have rules as to what they can take when bankruptcy is declared. They have to leave you one vehicle, your furniture, basically stuff you need to live. They don't come inspect your house to see what they can get. If you have anything worth money, don't tell them. In fact the counsellor that saw my friend and his wife asked if they had any collections. My friend said he had a large movie collection. The councellor said, no you don't. My friend took a couple of times before he realized what the councellor was saying. Then agreed that he had nothing of value. And because he had only had his house for a few years, there was no equity in it so the bank didn't want it back as long as he could make the payments. So he kept his house, car, which was paid off already and anything else he had. Only loss was credit rating which he can rebuild almost right away and his bankruptcy is wiped off the books in seven years. Canada Rocks.

If your young, working and capable, I would suggest trying to clean up your credit.

Due to medical reasons, I have become completely overwhelmed with debt. There is no way I can pay it off. I receive a generous disability payment, but it falls way short of me being able to pay my debts off.

I sent cease and desist letters to my creditors. The creditors then resold my debt to another company for collection.

Fortunately, my disability payment is judgement proof. Otherwise, I'm sure they would try and get a judgement.

However, in this time of financial crisis, I know there are millions of us that can not pay back our debts due to illness or joblessness. Collection agencies would have to pay a fortune in legal fee's to get judgements. Should a creditor try to get a judgement on me, I can turn around and sue them for trying to take my disability pay and make a few bucks off them...up to 1000k.

I turn off the phone (rings all time with pre-recorded messages saying are you Mr. So and So)? I advise friends to contact me via email.

Have a house and do not need credit. Never again. If I can't buy it with cash. Forget about it.

As for the OP, its your choice to do as you will. Do you really want this following you the rest of your life? I stopped worrying about it. Nothing I can do.

Being debt free is so powerful. Do yourself a favor and google Dave Ramsey and his seven rules. This changed my life.

My sister in law many years ago was married and they were making good money. Every weekend was a party, every day a celebration. I finally told her that maybe she should save some of that money and here reply was "I am going to live for today because you never know what will happen tomorrow". Well tomorrow came and she is now living out of a suitcase at whatever friend and family will have her. Been this way since she turned 55. No house, no husband, no insurance, no money and a 6 dollar an hour job as a hostess.

So, do what ya want but in the end there is always a price to pay.

It's paying off debt with debt backed money in order to service more debt aka a national ponzi scheme ala Federal Reserve. Whereas all fiat based systems collapse eventually, since we still live on a finite planet.

So the question arises: Why pay back crooks and cons, unless you condone immoral behavior that always ends badly aka head in arse debt slavery w/perpetual war.

The fiscal trainwreck is coming whether you pay back your loans or not. Maybe it's time to think about self preservation, before paying pizzo to the corporate mafia.

THE Most Important Chart of the CENTURY - SwarmUSA


[edit on 27-4-2010 by Regenmacher]