Anomalies and Mysteries on both sides of the 9/11 Debate

Originally posted by hgfbob
so..tell me how

tell me how

Maybe you should do some research instead of begging to be told things by people on forums.

I won't be engaging your desires for a derailing tangent either. You can engage my original point if you'd like but I'm not interested in digressing into the minutia of 911 with you. If you're that confused about things do some homework.

Originally posted by WWu777

And why do you have no skepticism toward the official story?

Who said I didn't? I don't expect the accepted account to be flawless. However, I don't expect that some flaws add up to the entire thing being wholly incorrect, relative to a huge cover up and indications of a massive conspiracy. If someone's going to attempt to rewrite the entire story it's going to take more than a handful of outliers interpreted in favor of someone's confirmation bias.

Originally posted by bsbray11

The Bushes and Bin Ladens are business partners and go back, but OBL is the "black sheep" of that family, though he nonetheless led Afghani rebels who were trained and funded by the CIA through the Pakistani ISI.

I believe this paragraph summs up very well part of the mess that we are all in.
Take a moment and think about it.
First you have two prominent families from far away countries involved in different businesses. All very normal.
Then, one of the sons of one of the families goes away and using some of the many millions of dollars from his family starts to help a guerrilla group that is fighting against a russian invation of their land.
The father of this man says that he is an outcast and no longer recognizes him as part of this family.
The son of the other family becomes president of the USA, and this country is very interested in helping the Afghan resistance against the russians.
So, the CIA through Pakistani intel. starts to help this forces.
Later comes the Iraki ocupation of Kwait and the US lead coalition of UN sanctioned forces utilizes lands in Saudi Arabia to mount the operation to liberate Kwait.
This deed (the using of that holy land) is seen as the greatest possible offense to this outcast man who was in Afghanistan and he bows to avenge this against the "infidels".
From that moment on, he starts the campaign through AlQaeda to wage his war against the USA and their alies.
And thus we come to 9/11.
For years, a few men were financed and trained to prepare for the mission that they carried out on 9/11.
OBL is the founder and head of AlQaeda (the base) and Khalid Sheik Mohamed, one of his main advisors is the man who came up with the details of how to carry out the attacks.

So, sometimes (and we have some examples in history) the people that one time were your business asociates or friends, turn up on the wrong side of future events.
One example.- The US helped Russia in their resistance against Hitler.
The US gov. gave oil, to Russia. Free of charge. Thousands of tons of oil were given away, so that Russia could fight and ressist.
Later, the USSR became the biggest threat to the USA.

Originally posted by WWu777
Who knows? We can't rule out the possibility that the whole 9/11 event was intended to be disputed and ambiguous for whatever diabolical reason. Perhaps it is a diversion from something else? After all, serious people who stage something do not leave so many gaping holes and incriminating evidence behind. So perhaps it was deliberately set up this way?

We may never know. But I hope we will.

You may be onto to something there. No one could make all the mistakes that were made unless they were not mistakes after all. It is making a bit more sense now. It is going on 9 years and we do not know any more than we did the day it happened. All the evidenced is trashed or destroyed. All the photos are so corrupted that there is nothing left that is pure and clean to use any more. May be it way planed that way. I am afraid it is a done deal. Who ever did it for what ever reason has gotten a away with it. They have fixed it so no matter what proof any one comes up with it will be worthless. They have fixed it so nothing can be proven or dis-proven.

Originally posted by rush969

Continuing...

- NORAD failed to intercept four airliners off course on 9/11, which was impossible according to their standard 24/7 procedures.

I don´t think you or I know NORAD´s standard 24/7 procedures in detail.
This looks more like rewritting something you´ve read over and over someplace and you´re somehow convinced that NORAD´s 24/7 procedures weren´t followed that day.

No I don't know their standard procedures. But those who worked for NORAD do. Their tactical director came out and said all this. See: patriotsquestion911.com...

Also, veteran air traffic controllers like Robin Gordon did too. See also the same link or his interview in "Zero An Investigation into 9/11".

You are falsely assuming again that the only people who question the official story are conspiracy nuts, and not credible military/aviation professionals. That is FALSE. See the names and statements at the link above. (that is, if you have any open mind)

People that know NORAD's procedures will tell you that any time an airliner loses their transponder signal, goes off course, or breaks communication, they will get intercepted, immediately too. That's what aviation PROFESSIONALS say! You keep forgetting that!

Instead, you spout your conjecture like it was fact!

This has been played many times around in conspiracy theories.
However, there´s not a shread of evidence to indicate any stand down by any force or gov. agency.
Quite the contrary in fact.

NORAD staff said this. It's the only explanation why they didn't intercept. Plus remember that Japanese judge guy who said that he heard someone ask Dick Cheney, "Does the order still stand?" He testified this before Congress.

Wrong theory again. Cheney was not in control of NORAD and Cheney DID NOT order any stand down.

What makes you so sure? Why are you an authority on this? You simply assume that authority=truth, and that's it.

Wrong.
The explosions happened in the elevator shafts of the Towers, caused by the crash of the planes above. Either from fuel that travelled down the shaft or by elevators falling down after their cables were severed by the airplane crash and explosion.
Witnesses in the lower floors or basement sub levels were not aware of the airplane impact a few seconds before and that´s why they confused what happened AFTER the impact with something happening, before the plane impact.

And how would you know this? You are going by the farce 9/11 commission report. William Rodriguez was there. You weren't! Don't you think he knows better than you?! He was a janitor there for many years and can tell the difference between an explosion coming from BELOW vs. above.

How do you explain the UPWARD push of the explosion?

You forget that a lot of the eyewitnesses report explosions at the GROUND LEVEL of the WTC.

You sure forget A LOT of stuff!

There were large fires going on in the building filled with all sorts of things that could explode at one time or another. So, having many things exploding all over the place at different times is something logical. There were gas tanks, electrical transformers, batteries of many types, and lots of other things that were exploding because there was no water either to fight the fires. But this is very different from having explosives around.

So how would fires on the top floor cause explosions at the ground level?! LOL Come on now.

Wrong. The force to destroy the concrete to dust came not from the jet fuel fires. It came from the upper portion of building falling down on the lower portion. This force was too great and the lower part was not able to support it, causing the progressive collapse. It´s called potential energy, then kinetic energy and it´s all dependant on gravity.

Pure speculation. That has never been demonstrated. And NIST cheated on their computer simulation, which was caught by Kevin Ryan.

Although it sounds nice, to say that scientists found thermite or thermate in the WTC dust is a little bit of a stretch. Dr. S. Jones has claimed this but has not been able to demonstrate that these components didn´t get there as a result of the collapse and fire. There are many things that were present at the towers that could explain Jones nano-spheres.

Not true. You're making up stuff out of thin air again and speculating. Speculations do not debunk. Dr. Jones explained why the thermite and the microspheres could not be from fire in his video presentation "Nanothermite". It's on youtube and you can watch it for free. But your mind seems so closed.

And explosives would have had a much more obvious signature all over the place. Very loud explosions, much much louder than reported, in much greater numbers and with a distinct timing right before collapse and during collapse.

There are many types of explosives, some we don't even know about, that the military has.

I don´t know what you mean by ZERO for 10. But I do believe that the official explanation for the collapses (which I think would be NIST´s) is satisfactory to many people. A majority probably.

Not to a majority in Europe.

By zero for 10, I am referring to the AE911Truth flowcharts. Have a look at them here:

www.ae911truth.org...

www.ae911truth.org...

[edit on 4-4-2010 by WWu777]

Originally posted by rush969

Continuing...

- NORAD failed to intercept four airliners off course on 9/11, which was impossible according to their standard 24/7 procedures.

I don´t think you or I know NORAD´s standard 24/7 procedures in detail.
This looks more like rewritting something you´ve read over and over someplace and you´re somehow convinced that NORAD´s 24/7 procedures weren´t followed that day.

No I don't know their standard procedures. But those who worked for NORAD do. Their tactical director came out and said all this. See: patriotsquestion911.com...

Also, veteran air traffic controllers like Robin Gordon did too. See also the same link or his interview in "Zero An Investigation into 9/11".

Here is what Robin Gordon said: (remember he is an authority on NORAD, not you!)

Statement to this website 4/10/07: "I knew within hours of the attacks on 9/11/2001 that it was an inside job. Based on my 11-year experience as an FAA Air Traffic Controller in the busy Northeast corridor, including hundreds of hours of training, briefings, air refuelings, low altitude bombing drills, being part of huge military exercises, daily military training exercises, interacting on a routine basis directly with NORAD radar personnel, and based on my own direct experience dealing with in-flight emergency situations, including two instances of hijacked commercial airliners, I state unequivocally; There is absolutely no way that four large commercial airliners could have flown around off course for 30 to 60 minutes on 9/11 without being intercepted and shot completely out of the sky by our jet fighters unless very highly placed people in our government and our military wanted it to happen.

It is important for people to understand that scrambling jet fighters to intercept aircraft showing the signs of experiencing "IN-FLIGHT EMERGENCIES" such as going off course without authorization, losing a transponder signal and/or losing radio contact is a common and routine task executed jointly between the FAA and NORAD controllers. The entire "national defense-first responder" intercept system has many highly-trained civilian and military personnel who are committed and well-trained to this task. FAA and NORAD continuously monitor our skies and fighter planes and pilots are on the ready 24/7 to handle these situations. Jet fighters typically intercept any suspect plane over the United States within 10 - 15 minutes of notification of a problem.

This type of "immediate, high speed, high priority and emergency" scramble had been happening regularly approximately 75 - 150 times per year for ten years. ...

He further states:

Article 3/12/07: "When it became clear that there hadn't been a systems failure of any kind on the morning of September 11th, Hordon was certain that something had gone terribly wrong within the upper echelons of authority. A pilot (third level air carrier) as well as an ATC, he is well versed on in-flight emergency protocol. He is also adamant that if these procedures had been followed on 9/11 not one of the hijacked planes would have reached their targets.

"I'm sorry but American 11 should have been intercepted over southwest Connecticut—bang, done deal." ...

The unfathomable delays seen in military action on 9/11 are inconceivable to those who have painstakingly investigated the matter -- and for a man who worked for years keeping air travel over the U.S. safe. ...

There, those are the analyses from an authority on the subject, not an armchair quarterback like you!

Of course, this doesn't mean it was an inside job. It only means that the government LET it happen or allowed it to happen as an excuse to get into war. It's the "they knew about it and let it happen" hypothesis, which most Americans agree with at least, even if they don't believe it was an inside job.

Is that too hard for you to buy?

Listen to his key words here. Pay attention:

"Based on my 11-year experience as an FAA Air Traffic Controller in the busy Northeast corridor, including hundreds of hours of training, briefings, air refuelings, low altitude bombing drills, being part of huge military exercises, daily military training exercises, interacting on a routine basis directly with NORAD radar personnel, and based on my own direct experience dealing with in-flight emergency situations, including two instances of hijacked commercial airliners, I state unequivocally; There is absolutely no way that four large commercial airliners could have flown around off course for 30 to 60 minutes on 9/11 without being intercepted and shot completely out of the sky by our jet fighters unless very highly placed people in our government and our military wanted it to happen."

Also, here is what NORAD tactical director Capt. Daniel Davis had to say about it:

Additionally, in my experience as an officer in NORAD as a Tactical Director for the Chicago-Milwaukee Air Defense and as a current private pilot, there is no way that an aircraft on instrument flight plans (all commercial flights are IFR) would not be intercepted when they deviate from their flight plan, turn off their transponders, or stop communication with Air Traffic Control. No way! With very bad luck, perhaps one could slip by, but no there's no way all four of them could!

Again, don't you think a NORAD officer would know BETTER than a pure conjecturist like you?

You agree that people who work for or with NORAD know more about it than you, right? Agreed?

Good. Then please humble yourself!


[edit on 4-4-2010 by WWu777]

[edit on 4-4-2010 by WWu777]

[edit on 4-4-2010 by WWu777]

reply to post by WWu777


Found this link to be most interesting, sorry if had already been sited.

heiwaco.tripod.com...