One for the christians...

Here is my problem with your religion,

My mum is not religous in anyway, however, she is still a hardworking, gentle, caring person that would never harm anyone or thing, however because she does not folllow the religion and worship god she would not get to "heaven" (i know she has no belief in heaven but you still get my point)

Now, heres my problem,
If i a serial killer/peaodophile/etc... suddenly decides to "confess their sins" they can according to christianity get to heaven,

Just me or is that ridiculous, what makes me laugh most, is, if you have to allow god into your life and you have to worship him, it actually makes out like he/she is some massive ego maniac control freak! who, again if you think about actually sent jesus down as a walking talking promotional tool!

Jeez, rant over.

reply to post by stephenwephentephen


Hello there. What would you prefer? For the Bible to say our way into heaven (instead of it being free for the asking) would instead be to skin ourselves alive, set ourselves on fire, and lash ourselves with a cat-o-nine-tails?

Would God get your approval if He made it REALLY HARD to earn salvation to atone for our sins? Is it not OK for you that He understands we're a wreck of a species and need a free gift instead of having to do a whole list of penances to make it?

And, in your opinion, what does it say for those who reject a free gift?

Would God be cool in your book to demand absolute perfection and if you screw up even once, you're out of chances? Is salvation only offered to the perfect?

What would you suggest God do as an alternative? Only the perfect get salvation? If that was the case, we wouldn't need it. He died and offered salvation and forgiveness BECAUSE we needed it.

[edit on 3/28/2010 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


Haha! i never wrote the perfection once my friend, murder, rape, etc.. stuff like that are all pretty far away from perfection,
i actually do think you are making good points but i'm sorry i just don't sunscribe to it, i think the things i listed, rape, murder etc... in my eyes are pretty unforgivable,
i'm not saying people should seek perfection to reach heaven, just maybe not the above actions as in my eyes there is no human way to make up for those sins.

reply to post by stephenwephentephen

Haha! i never wrote the perfection once my friend, murder, rape, etc.. stuff like that are all pretty far away from perfection,

I know you didn't. But I did that to make a point to show just how great mercy really is. It's available to even the most heinous among us.

And it's not a case of 'Well, I'll go out and rape, murder, and pillage to my heart's content cuz I'm forgiven!' Not even atheists go out and do that just because they can.

Just like Jesus said, He didn't come for the righteous. He came for the sinner. He used the analogy of one who forgives debt. Someone forgiven for a $5 debt may think, 'Hey! Cool. Thanks.' But He also came to save those who owed a million.

reply to post by AshleyD


Ah okayyy this post sort of gives me a better understanding of what you mean, i actually do respect what your saying,

when i speak angry of christians i geuss i am always just going by extreme christianity which by all accounts most probably doesn't even follow the bible, thankyou for the eye opener

reply to post by stephenwephentephen


No worries. I'm one of those who 'owed a million' so I REALLY appreciate the pardon vs. someone who has always done good with the occasional slip up. But I also try not to take advantage of it.

Going by strict doctrine, the original poster is correct...

I often use a similar example in religious debates, in fact.

So, what to do?

Easy..

I try to live my life, be a good person, and do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Regardless of who is right (or if as I suspect, none of our "isms" are correct)...I'll just have to hope that THAT effort is good enough for whomever is in charge...

And if it isn't?

Well, then it is not a deity worth my adoration....

reply to post by stephenwephentephen


I can't really add much but it's an understandable question...resulting in an answer that appears to be unfair and unjust. Salvation is a gift...one that you accept or reject. The choice is ours....

Imagine this OP:

Let's say you bought a puppy who was two days old. You fed the little guy when he was hungry. You gave him the shots his little body needed. You house-trained him and taught him your instructions on how he should behave (i,e. no biting, no barking, no attacking other dogs, no stealing food from your plate. etc.). Your dog is a wonderful addition to the family. You played with him and gave him the love and attention he so desperately needed, all the while keeping a firm hand about your instructions/ commands he was to follow. You disciplined him when necessary, because if you didn't discipline him it would be the same as not caring for him, right? He would turn out to be bad if you didn't. You want your dog to be a good dog, not bad. As time went by, you continued to 'watch' over him and gave him the love and support he so desperately needed.
Time has gone by and now the puppy is an adolescent and is ready to go to the park to interact with other dogs. Well, the first day at the park, he was a little skittish, but once he was used to his new environment, he began to play with the other dogs and socializing like good dogs do. It was a good day at the park. Later on you go home. So, you decide to go back to the park a couple of days later and do it all over again. However, today there's a new dog at the park. And frankly, this new dog is mean as all hell. He's biting other dogs, barking at the children that were present, your dog can't stand this dog. This new dog approaches your dog, bearing its' teeth. Your dog turns to look at you as if to ask "What do I do, master?". All the while, your dog didn't attack the other dog, because he remembered your instructions that were instilled in him from his beginning days. You tell him "NO, do not attack the other dog. Remember my commandment." Your dog listened to you. You proceed to give your dog love because he followed your earlier instructions to not hurt other dog. He seems delighted because you rewarded him with affection for behaving. You say, it's been a long day anyways, and decided to turn and walk you and your dog home. Suddenly, the other dog runs up on your dog from behind and gorges your dogs' back leg. Your dog breaks free and proceeds to attack this other dog, until your dog has the other dogs' neck in his jaws. Your dog kills the other dog. What do you do, then?
You know that your dog is a good dog. He is great with the kids. On the other hand, he killed another dog. But, you've seen this dog grow and you've loved him all his life. What do you do? Your heart is heavy with sadness, because your commandment of "Dog shall not hurt other dogs" has been broken, now he must pay the price. You decided to put the dog down, because you cannot have a dog around that has already tasted blood. He might kill again. So, you set up an appointment to have the dog put down the next day. All that night, your dog has been sad and has been moping around. He's aware that he's did something wrong and has been beating himself up over it, avoiding you all the while. Later on in the evening, your dog musters up the courage to approach you. He approaches with his head down and walks slowly over to where you are sitting. He yelps to get your attention and proceeds to flop his head down on your leg, with upturned eyebrows as if to say, "I'm sorry. I won't do it again. I promise.", he was truly remorseful. You, being the compassionate owner that you are, give in. Your heart is no longer heavy because your dog has come to apologize, remorsefully. You pet him and all's well. All you wanted to do was see if he would feel grief for breaking one of your commandments and come and ask you for forgiveness because you are a loving owner and full of forgiveness.

That, my friend is how I believe God is. He forgives all because he is our owner. When we sin, it hurts God. He wants to forgive, but we must ask Him. A father's true love is to steer their children right. He knows we're going to veer away every now and then, we're human. All he wants if for you to "live up" to what you've done and to gain WISDOM from what you did.

Now, do I condone murder, rape, child molestation? Of course not, that's why I do none of these things. Some people do, however. Eventually, they feel remorseful and ask for forgiveness from God and their victim(s). If they don't then they are truly evil and are most likely going to die without asking for forgiveness, although some people do on their death bed. Let there be no mistake about it, though. There are different levels of heaven. Yeah, a soul might squeeze in, so to speak, but that doesn't mean it's going to be all fun and games. This is where I think a lot of people are confused about Christianity and therfor the basis of your post. "So all I have to do is sin and ask for forgiveness later and I am saved?" Yes and no. The Bible makes it very clear about willfully sinning. The Bible (Yeah, I am a Christian) also tells me that some souls in heaven will be servants of servants' servants. Anyways, I am not a priest and all this is another thread...

I'm sorry for the reply being so long and for rambling, I just wanted to give it in another perspective. Thanks for your valuable time.

reply to post by nycfrog27


I totally see where you're coming from and i honestly do thankyou greatly for your in depth response so i have starred your post , but i'm sorry to say i feel it's sugar coating what i've said, i feel that's the problem with metaphors and so on, theres a massive difference between a cute dog that was led to kill a dog, i'm talking the people that have no religion whatsoever, then they do a terrible thing such as rape, murder, child rape, etc... then suddenly turn christian, i think some exploit is as a way back into some kind of community ? x

Well, the slick Christian will tell you that unless they SINCERELY repent (in their hearts), that of course, such trickery will not work on the divine....

That said though, I share your original problem, even when dealing with a truly remorseful individual....vs. someone who simply doesn't follow that faith.

That kind of act (condemning a good person, just because they don't follow you) reeks of vanity, which is a sin, thus creating a paradox that is completely ignored by the Church....(or beaten away with the tired, "The Lord works in mysterious ways...." line)....

reply to post by stephenwephentephen


But, by saying they don't mean their repentance is the same as not giving them a chance. If a person has TRULY repented, then that person will not willfully do the sin again, right? On the other hand, Christians are a forgiving people. After all, my Lord didn't come down to save the already saved! He came down to save the ones that weren't. I believe in giving people chances. If I didn't then I am a close-minded, selfish individual who is incapable of showing compassion.

Who are we to judge a person on the credibility of them being saved? We cannot truly judge someone because we do not know the contents of their heart. Flip the script. What if that individual was you? Would you expect me to call you a liar and not forgive you?