A Thread That Proves The "Fireballs Down the Elevators" Impossible?

In another thread around here a week or so ago I had mentioned that I was starting to believe that the fireballs down the elevators explanation, causing the explosions in the lobby of the WTC1, could not possibly be right. Simply put, the layout and extension of the elevator shafts just doesn't allow for this or make any sense whatsoever.

What makes a whole lot more sense to me at least is that this occurred upon the basement explosions witnessed by William Rodriguez, before Flight 11- if it was indeed Flight 11- hit. Notice that the lobby elevators go down to the basements, but do NOT go up anywhere near the impact zone:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/de7fcb5a33c2.jpg[/atsimg]

Yes, car 50A, the freight elevator did, but we are talking the lobby here. So the only place the fireball could have come from that hit the lobby would have been from below.

And there are other reasons for this too, having to do with the ignition properties of jet fuel, paths it could have and couldn't have traveled, dilution issues, and more. Some of them weren't working at the time too, because of maintenance/upgrade issues.

In researching it further I came upon a pretty massive post over at the old Loose Change forums, which I think anyone who has not seen it should really read. That forum is now locked, so no responses to it can be posted there anymore. Loose Change has a new forum.

So I will leave you with this link, and anyone that cares to comment, please do. Be forwarned, it is advanced research, and it is long and involved. But soak it in, and I think you sill see just how impossible the "fireballs down the elevators caused the explosions in the lobby" lie really is.

The Mega Post

I think you are absolutely right. I haven't read your link but I have argued about this in another thread here on ATS. People believe the descending fireball theory because they have seen special effects or CGI fires in the movies. In actual fact and in real life a fireball that descends 85 stories or so down an elevator shaft is an impossibility.

The fireball outside the building didn't descend to the lobby level and neither did the fireball inside the building.

People have lost their sense of reality, largely thanks to what they see on TV and in the movies. An explosive fireball that descends to the lobby and blows the doors off the elevator is impossible.

Having said that. There is testimony to incendiary effects associated with the elevator shafts below the impact zone where the jet fuel fire was burning. I think the entire core of the building was seeded with thermite or incendiaries of some sort. This can be seen in photos of the collapse where the entire core seems to be smoking all the way to the bottom as the building collapses.

This could not be the result of the jet fuel fire either since there is no supplemental fuel in the core to sustain any kind of fire started by the ignited jet fuel.


[edit on 25-3-2010 by ipsedixit]

The NIST report screwed up the computer model, as it produced erroneous results for its jet fuel distribution across the floors in the towers. This has been admitted by at least one official government story believer.

A few official government story believers have tripped over themselves in other threads, when they have failed to provide any figures detailing any alleged jet fuel within the towers.

Ask them how much jet fuel flowed down which particular elevator shafts and you will be met with all kinds of dodges and hand-waving.

Heh, well thanks, but seriously, if you want to be able to argue this from every angle conceivable, that post at Loose Change is the bomb.

(no pun intended )

Witnesses statements you never even heard of are examined, and tied in to the material. I mean that is one serious thread. And it only made it to 5 pages!

So just to see what Dylan had done with that in Loose Change Final Cut, I watched that again too last night. And MAN was I disappointed. Not a darn thing about it. But it wasn't just that. It's almost as if he didn't really have all that much worth watching in that film. No wonder it didn't stick with me when I saw it the first time.

But I digress. ATS wants solid research, well then there it is. Clicky Linky folks. Yup, you need coffee by the pound for that monster.

Thanks for the replies.

[edit on Thu Mar 25th 2010 by TrueAmerican]

I suppose I should point out the obvious, just in case no one gets it.

Just about every aspect of the official 9/11 cover story is designed to draw attention away from what really happened. In the case of the fireball explanation that it traveled down the elevator shafts to blow out the lobby, that was done to conceal the fact that something blew up in the basement. Something may also have blown up on the 22nd floor as well, if you will read the link provided.

And low and behold, what was one conspicuous thing missing from the 9/11 Commission report? All the witness testimonies of explosions! But most suspiciously, Willie Rodriguez's testimony. Someone really didn't want the basement explosions exposed, and the fast removal of evidence from the site would also tie into this. Barry Jennings in WTC7 getting blown upwards from below would be another example. Explosions leave chemical signatures, the kind that are hard to forge- and the kind that can be investigated.

But it's not just the removal of evidence- look at the way they did it. They made absolutely sure that evidence was so tightly controlled, they installed GPS devices on the trucks- and fired one guy who strayed too far to take off for lunch.

The Bush administration's refusal for about 14 months to have any independent investigation at all gave ample time for that evidence to be culled, destroyed, rendered chemically innocent- and a large portion of it shipped off to China.

I would welcome any debunkers into this thread- not with comments like "that thread is junk," but with true, honest to goodness, logical rebuttals of that thread that make sense.

I was already including this information in my documentary, but I notice it's kinda quiet in this thread.

Any debunkers want to explain how the lobby elevators exploded when none of them had access to the jet fuel or the upper floors? It's more likely that the lobby elevators exploded because explosives were being set off in the basement levels and the core like so many people reported.

Great thread, TA.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Thanks man.

I will anxiously await your documentary, because I already know it's gonna be killer. At least I hope so.

And hopefully you will not do what Dylan did with Loose Change Final Cut- and just skim over the fluffy stuff. We need the detailed stuff now. The undebunkable stuff that propels forward the need for a real investigation with teeth and subpoena power. I might add that this will need to be done by Congress, as opposed to a citizen's grand jury.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
The undebunkable

That is my main goal. Undebunkable and undeniable.

It's still quiet in this thread. I wonder if they're huddled on the sidelines brainstorming something to explain away the obvious.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
The undebunkable

That is my main goal. Undebunkable and undeniable.

It's still quiet in this thread. I wonder if they're huddled on the sidelines brainstorming something to explain away the obvious.

Well, that's a great goal man.

And yes, I suppose the Q-unit is reviewing the big link, trying to figure out what to do next. But equally as baffling is the lack of support on this thread from other truthers. The link I posted in the OP is about as solid as it gets. No comprendo.

reply to post by TrueAmerican

In another thread around here a week or so ago I had mentioned that I was starting to believe that the fireballs down the elevators explanation, causing the explosions in the lobby of the WTC1, could not possibly be right. Simply put, the layout and extension of the elevator shafts just doesn't allow for this or make any sense whatsoever.

There were 106 elevators in each building, 99 passengers and 7 freight

In North Tower car 50 was Freight elevator that ran entire lenght of
building

You missed the 2 Passenger elevators which ran lenght of building - up
to Windows on World Restaurant on 106/107 floors (North Tower)

The diagram you posted does not show all the elevators - it is simply
a schematic showing how elevators stacked in building



Caption to above diagram from NIST report

Note: diagram above doesn't show freight elevators.

I noticed you omitted this little fact....

Here is elevator configuration for North Tower

There were 99 passenger elevators in each tower, arranged in three vertical zones to move occupants in stages to skylobbies on the 44th and 78th floors. These were arranged as express (generally larger cars that moved at higher speeds) and local elevators in an innovative system first introduced in WTC 1 and WTC 2. There were 8 express elevators from the concourse to the 44th floor and 10 express elevators from the concourse to the 78th floor as well as 24 local elevators per zone, which served groups of floors in those zones. There were seven freight elevators, only one of which served all floors. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation per American Society of Mechanical Engineers

There were two express elevators (#6 and #7) to Windows on the World (and related conference rooms and banquet facilities) in WTC 1 and two to the observation deck in WTC 2. There were five local elevators in each building: three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby, one that ran between floors 106 and 110, and one that ran between floors 43 and 44, serving the cafeteria from the skylobby. All elevators had been upgraded to incorporate firefighter emergency operation requirements.

In addition to the passenger elevators, there were seven freight elevators in each tower; most served a particular zone, while Car 50 served every floor.
* Car #5: B1-5, 6, 9-40, 44
* Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107

The graphics below illustrate elevator shaft continuity on and below the aircraft impact zones. The colored areas represent shafts, not necessarily individual elevator cars. The blue area in the floor plans below indicates the #50 freight elevator shaft, which is continuous from the impact zones to the lowest basement level, B6. In the north tower, with elevator operator Arturo Griffith and carpenter Marlene Cruz aboard, the #50 elevator was hit by a blast, dropped several floors, and stopped below the B1 landing. A large fireball came through the shaft just after Griffith and Cruz were pulled from smoky elevator.

The yellow area indicates the large #6 and #7 elevators, which led to Windows on the World in the north tower (WTC 1) and to the observation deck in the south tower (WTC 2). This shaft is continuous from the impact zones to sublevel B4, where several people within the core area were injured by the jet fuel blast, and where building engineer Edward McCabe said the blast came "about 30 seconds" after he felt the building shift.


The north tower's 93rd floor was the lowest level of aircraft debris impact.

Elevator Configuration North Tower Impact Zone

William Rodriguez was on the B1 level of the north tower when flight 11 hit.
Felipe David was burned while standing in front of a freight elevator shaft on the B1 or B2 level

Service (Basement) Level B 1

Several people were injured within the core on the north tower B4 level, after the impact. Several elevator pits ended at that level.

Service (Basement) Level B 4



Can see was continous pathway from impact zone to Lobby/basement level
Freight car 50 and Passenger car 6 and 7

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Hey, fellow Truth Seekers. Just a shout out and a bump to let you know I'm with you. I have known about the elevator non-connect for some time. I'm waiting for the Truth about 911 to reach critical mass. It is like a bubble of air, trapped at the bottom of a septic tank, fighting it's way inexorably upward, past the hard spots, tarry goo and undigested layers of resistance. But here it comes and it will not smell good to many people.

By the way, True American, you are #1 friend in my book. Keep the posts coming and I hope nothing and no one was hurt by the explosion you wrote about.

Another Vodka
ps You GO _BonesZ_ !

reply to post by thedman


Just making it clear that there were 4 cars in 2 shafts in each building that serviced all or most floors:

* Car #50A & #50B serviced B6 to 109
* Car #6 & #7 serviced B5 to 107 (B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107)

That is from NIST and from Robert Jones, an employee of Ace Elevators that serviced the elevators at the WTC.







[edit on 26-3-2010 by _BoneZ_]

reply to post by thedman


From the article that I posted in OP, I think a key sequence and testimony comes with this part:

We start with the account by FDNY Lieutenant William Walsh for the WTC Task Force:

[Lt. Walsh:] What I observed as I was going through these doors and I got into the lobby of the World Trade Center was that the lobby of the Trade Center didn't appear as though it had any lights.

All of the glass on the first floor that abuts West Street was blown out. The glass in the revolving doors was blown out. All of the glass in the lobby was blown out.

The wall panels on the wall are made of marble. It's about two or three inches thick. They're about ten feet high by ten feet wide. A lot of those were hanging off the wall.

[B.C. Congiusta:] Wait a second. (Interruption.)

[Walsh:] What else I observed in the lobby was that -- there's basically two areas of elevators. There's elevators off to the left-hand side which are really the express elevators. That would be the elevators that's facing north. Then on the right-hand side there's also elevators that are express elevators, and that would be facing south. In the center of these two elevator shafts would be elevators that go to the lower floors. They were blown off the hinges. That's where the service elevator was also.

[B.C. Congiusta:] Were these elevators that went to the upper floors? They weren't side lobby elevators?

[Walsh:] No, no, I'd say that they went through floors 30 and below.

[B.C. Congiusta:] And they were blown off?

[Walsh:] They were blown off the hinges, and you could see the shafts. The elevators on the extreme north side and the other express elevator on the extreme south side, they looked intact to me from what I could see, the doors anyway.

This shows that the fireball and/or explosion that damaged the lobby clearly came from below, and not from above, because the elevators that went to the basement were the ones blown out, while the others were left intact.

If you will go to the article, he provides pictures to corroborate this.

And right there this is CASE CLOSED. The explosions from the basement damaged the lobby, and were a separate event from the fireball.

Nice investigating, NIST and 9/11 Commission.

[edit on Fri Mar 26th 2010 by TrueAmerican]

Great post OP.

Overlooked evidence regarding explosions prior to both impacts...

Any agency, organisation that uses time related data do so by using the U.T.C. (Universal Time Clock), the most accurate time keeper in the world, so here we have exact times of the events, if the recorded data is A=hours, B=minutes, C=seconds, then that basically is that.

Seismograph readings detailing x2 data readings that registered on the Richter Scale...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cac1335f9a6d.jpg[/atsimg]

It`s a well known fact that seismic data is recorded via the ground, it is highly unlikely that planes hitting buildings, built to absorb massive amounts of energy a thousand feet above ground level, would cause seismic data, nothing enforces this fact better than no readings from the Pentagon impact, which was very close to ground level against a very solid building, if some people here do not quite understand how energy travels through objects then go try this....... Hit a solid object with a solid steel pole, when you get feeling back in your hands, do the same thing but this time use a kiddies rubber bat, this is how energy is either absorbed (insulated) or channelled (conducted).

What caused the two readings prior to both impacts, obviously very near ground level?.

Originally posted by Seventh
What caused the two readings prior to both impacts, obviously very near ground level?.

I'll take "Explosions in the Basements," for 500 please.

But, I am not so convinced with the seismic data. I have to be honest. The reason is that upon further inspection, the actual wave signatures don't appear to be explosions. Explosive signatures on seismographs are one thing that is studied quite a bit by seismologists. They have to be able to differentiate these from actual earthquakes. The other problem is that microquakes of that magnitude occur in New York too, believe it or not. In fact, New York had one just the other day.

I am not saying the seismic data is unimportant, because it is important. It just isn't as convincing to me. Just my opinion... But thanks Seventh, and good to see you around! You've made some great posts here.

And speaking of explosions in the basements, I really have to wonder looking at this little known picture, with an intact ceiling, why the floor is caved in?



Right click and "view image" to get the whole picture...

Seems like with the ceiling intact, it'd be kinda strange for falling debris to cause that, no?

reply to post by _BoneZ_


Were three elevators running lenght of building

Car 50 frieght

Car 6 & 7 high speed passenger elevators running from basement to
restaurant on 106/107 floors

More on elevators here

sites.google.com...

reply to post by thedman


I edited my post above to reflect the fact that there were 4 cars in 2 shafts in each building that serviced all or most floors:

* Car #50A & #50B serviced B6 to 109
* Car #6 & #7 serviced B5 to 107 (B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107)







[edit on 26-3-2010 by _BoneZ_]

Just found this excellent thread.
And some good replies, from both sides.

I have shouted around about this masterpiece thread (by NK-44 and some help from Chopoz) on the Loose Change forum for some time now in several threads, not a single return on it, they avoid commenting on it as if it was the Medieval Pest.
z10.invisionfree.com...

Its the best piece of thorough research about these basement and higher floors explosions, ever. Period.

See my posts here :
Burn victim verifies elevator explodes during 'impact' to North Tower not during collapse, by _BoneZ_ .
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Felipe David WTC 1 basement blast victim - Where theres smoke, there isnt always fire. by andy1972
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Would a new 9/11 investigation really accomplish anything? by WWu777
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and please read all the posts on that page, ibiubu gives a few good advices as a metallurgist.