DENY IGNORANCE about health-care

Ok people, time to sober up.

Everybody's riled up about the recent health-care reform bill, many assumptions are being tossed about and as we ALL should know, some of those assertions (on all sides) are WRONG. It doesn't end there though, even if an assertion is wrong a REACTION might be as well- for instance, you may disagree with a part of the bill, but on a scale from "Doesn't matter" to "It's the end of the WORLD!", too many people have TIPPED the freaking scales beyond any knowledge, logic, rationality, or common sense! I also think it's safe to say that no matter where you stand on this bill you have BOTH likes and dislikes about it.

We are all here because we share an interest in important and/or obscure news/information, truth, improving our world, and getting to the BOTTOM of things, right? Well let's actually DO THAT. In this thread I DEMAND that you behave as a scientist or true journalist would behave while studying this entire situation- be objective, don't be blind, but be objective and REALISTIC when researching the matter and assessing EXACTLY what the outcome will actually be and then whether that outcome is acceptable on its own AND within the full context of things. This is NOT the thread for propaganda, bickering, fear-mongering, false information, or un-sourced/baseless beliefs. This is a thread for a SCIENTIFIC discussion of the health-care reform bill.

Here we will bring our own sources of ACTUAL knowledge on the issue, and expert analysis of it.

Here you must SHED your pre-concieved notions of what health-care is, no matter how passionately you SUPPORT or REJECT it. I'm very serious about that. If you consider yourself a REAL truth-seeker you MUST be willing to abandon your entire belief system and anything/everything you thought you knew, no matter WHERE that leads you. Whether that leads you to reject/resist the system or embrace/trust it or a LOGICAL COMBINATION (most likely) of the two. We must be patient and thorough and not jump to conclusions in any direction. We must suspend disbelief as well as blind faith (in any opinion) before we draw serious conclusions on a serious thing.

I will start things off by posting a few relevant links. I'll leave the rest to a discussion amongst us all retaining respect for one another. Instead of BATTLING (gang vs. gang) over our points of contention we must FIND those points, PAUSE before reacting, and then move from there TOGETHER in order to find the truth on those points. Too many of the conversations I see on here involve an eagerness to find points of contention and then STOPPING to visciously/pointlessly battle over them (either by one side or multiple sides) without maturely discovering the truth side-by-side as investigators simply with different hypotheses. Here I demand that EVERYBODY suspend their reptilian desire to battle and rather be civil when discussing and seeking the truth on the bill no matter WHERE it leads you. This bill could be good for us, bad for us, good for certain people/organizations, bad for certain people/organizations, or a more watered down combination of BOTH/ALL (most likely once again). But please do not try too hard to reinforce your slant but be open to sound information and any credible reality.




Keep in mind these quotes which should be part of the BACKBONE of your truth-seeking:

“If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.”
- Rene Descartes

“On the mountains of truth you can never climb in vain: either you will reach a point higher up today, or you will be training your powers so that you will be able to climb higher tomorrow.”
- Friedrich Nietzsche

And one that should tickle your backbone to keep you realistic:

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.”
-Winston Churchill

Now without further ado, I will present these links on health-care reform which I found to be informative and sober on the matter. Yes they have a non-alarmist stance on the reform bill, though they present what seems to be sound information from credible sources (if they TRULY aren't then provide concrete proof, but otherwise heed them at least in part). Simply a starting point with FACTS:

Health care reform bill 101: Who gets subsidized insurance?
www.csmonitor.com...


How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You
www.nytimes.com...


Health Reform Subsidy Calculator -- Premium Assistance for Coverage in Exchanges/Gateways
healthreform.kff.org...

Though it may be difficult once you read this intro and get into the actual conversation- please REMEMBER that we are generally all more similar than different. We all have the same concerns in life, the same general situations and emotions, and we all just want to find the truth and have others acknowledge that truth when we share it with them. Also remember- don't battle on points of contention but rather view them as an opportunity to explore (or re-explore) them TOGETHER as a team regardless of disagreements.

[edit on 25-3-2010 by NoHierarchy]

Thanks for all the work you went to putting this thread together.
I've just gotten over a head cold and now am all ready to tuck in and get to the meat of this issue.
Thanks for giving me a great place to start.
I'll be sure and come back and comment after I'm through reading.

peace

Here are a couple more links that it wouldn't let me edit into the original post!



Links on challenges to mandatory Health Insurance:


The Debate Over Mandatory Health Insurance
www.npr.org...


States Seeking to Ban Mandatory Health Insurance
abcnews.go.com...



Links on Republican support for mandatory Health Programs (including Mitt Romney's spearheading of Massachusetts mandatory private-insurance):


The Republican Who Thinks Big on Health Care
www.time.com...


Frist: An Individual Mandate for Health Insurance Would Benefit All
www.usnews.com...

reply to post by NoHierarchy


Really awesome thread.

Before we get started with the discussion though, do you have a link for the actual Health Care Bill that we could download?

I would like the opportunity to read through the Bill on my own.

reply to post by dalan.


Actually, it's still being amended and swapping hands from the Senate to the House I believe...I'm not sure which version has been signed. They have to be at H.R. 3220+ or so now, I'm sure of it. Anyways...

Here is the full version of H.R. 3200(it's actually 3962 but I can't find what was amended in a separate text so...it's all pretty pointless but it gives an outlining), which is the only one I could find in full text.

docs.house.gov...

I know there is a 2200 page ratification out there somewhere...I'll have to look around more.

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Agree2Disagree]

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Agree2Disagree]

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Damn I knew I forgot something, hah!

Thanks for posting the link to the actual bill. I planned on including that, don't know why I left it out.

THANK YOU!



Here are some links to the actual bills and holistic info via OpenCongress.org:



H.R. 3962


Library of Congress - 3 Versions


www.opencongress.org...




H.R. 3200


Library of Congress - 2 Versions


www.opencongress.org...




Looks like they're two separate bills, H.R. 3200 was introduced in 2009 but not passed. H.R. 3962 is the one recently passed by the House as the "Affordable Health Care for America Act".

[edit on 25-3-2010 by NoHierarchy]

reply to post by NoHierarchy


I haven't been keeping up with it lately to be honest. I'm not sure which one he has signed.

nvm, u beat me to it

[edit on 25-3-2010 by Agree2Disagree]