Right of reply to Occultism/Satanism are the same thing thread.

Sigh

Ok while I respect that you hold this belief. It’s a belief that does not appear to be based on facts, so much as circumstantial evidence, UPG (Unverified Personal Gnosis) and perhaps Shared Personal Gnosis (SPG)… Personal Gnosis is not fact however.

Let me illustrate what I mean by this. You claim to be Christian (and by this I mean you identify as one). This translates to you believing that there is but one and only one Omnipotent deity, who created all. It’s impossible to prove (or disprove this), you believe this, and belief is an act of faith. Thus this is a Personal gnosis. It does not invalidate your faith, but your faith is not the only one out there. Thus to use this as the basis for your argument, you will not be looking objectively at the facts.

Now to give a little about me. I am a neopagan Druid of the Reconstructionist path (as opposed to the revivalist) , as well as a Celtic Reconstructionist. This means that I am a hard polytheist. Every deity, yes even the one in the Abrahamic Faiths are unique, separate. None however omnipotent, omnipresent, or omni powerful. That is my own SPG.

I am also a member of the Scientific community. I hold a PhD in Chemistry. I thus feel that I have a somewhat balanced view of the mystical and the Scientific.

So let’s launch into this.

Occultism, Satanism, and interconnectedness. Occult practice is a very broad area to try and explain. Satanism is sensationalized (and I am not one, so don’t go there thanks). I will start with the various Satanic practices that exist today. Most of them are humanistic in nature. This means they do not believe in an “over God” and his opponent. As has already been pointed out there are numerous types of “Satanist” from the Church of Satan (Antion LeVay formed this), the Temple of Set (a schism from the Church of Satan) all the way to secular Humanists, Left hand path magicians, and yes the Goth/Emo (I lean towards Emo on what they are) teen who thinks “Satan is cool because he’s the ultimate bad guy”. Let us not forget the dangerous mental case who “hears” Satan as well, mind you there are also the dangerous mental cases who hear “God”, you know Fred Phelps etc.

Occultism also has a huge array of groups. Lets start with Khabbalists. Yep the Occult practice of the Judaic Faiths that the West has stolen so fondly and made into a multi million dollar business for the likes of Madonna. You’ve got Sufist Islamicists, and yes Christian Mystics, this includes the speaking in tongues, laying of hands, driving the devil out. Ahh yes Driving the Devil out. The Catholic Church used to make good money on this one It in of its self is Occult. Before any of you jump in and say “Catholics are Pagans not Christians”, sorry, no, they are the first major Christian Church and just have not evolved as well as others, but they are still Christians!

You may also include the Ceremonial Magician groups like the OTO, Silver Star, and Golden Dawn (plus many many more) in there too. The Masonic groups, and the Meso Druidic Lodges (the fraternal orders) Many of these are either Deist Christians or they are atheist and Agnostic.

Thus I believe I have “shown” that your premise is a tad flawed. You have not defined anything, and then gone into a tirade based off of faith. This Faith while likely to sustain you for years to come, is not proof. It is as I said in my opening remarks, Personal Gnosis. Shared not and totally Unverified, and unverifiable!

You then say (and never show) that there is a link between “Science, Christianity, Satanism, Occultism, Music, TV, Mayans, Hopis, Egyptians, Buddhists, Pagans, ECT… ECT” (no emphasis added by me)

Yes many Satanic folks are Occultists. Not all (in fact a small % are) Occultists are Satanic.

Anything said beyond this is intellectual masturbation on anyone’s part, as it relies on a group agreement (which I for one will not agree to)

Slan agat

Gareth Thomas

[edit on 5-3-2010 by Noinden]

Curious.. Why start a new thread on this, rather than replying on the other thread?

Anyway, I always thought the answer to this sort of thing was simple. You are a Satanist (in a Christian sense), if you worship the entity they call Satan. Since I do not believe in such an entity, I am not a Satanist, even if I do believe that things people would call "occult".

Thank you for posting this thread but I hardly think it is needed as Melissa (who posted the original thread) is as ignorant of other world religions and history as she is ignorant of her own Christian faith.

She is a classic type of daft character, driven by blind faith, uneducated, narrow minded, and unable to carry on even the most simple debate regarding even the most basic well accepted historical or religious evidence. She throws out disconnected bible quotes without a notion of their origin, history, or meaning. She is unable to put her own faith into any context that leads to meaningful debate. Most pagans/druids I know are far more educated on the history and world-context of Christianity, than any of these quote-spewing bible thumpers who are constantly on the attack of religions they have no hope of even understanding. Rest assured, most of them have very low-comprehension of the history of mankind and an even lower understanding of the history and basis of their own faith.

The fact that they blame most evils in the world on Satan is a misconception that is even incongruent with the story of Genesis. It seems to me that going back and rereading their scriptures and using a little critical analysis of them, one would find that Jesus was very much focused on the evils that man has put on the world. Things like politics in religion, the free-will of man to be spiritual without the oppression of overlord governments and the evils of having overly dogmatic (spiritually-devoid) church practices. That, to me, seemed to be his mantra. How can these modern day self righteous zealots miss that? Are they reading the same bible as me? Where in the bible does Jesus walk around blaming all the evil in the world on a fallen archangel, Lucifer, who was only bent on allowing mankind to make his own destiny by offering us free-will? Oh sure, one can quote Paul all day long on these matters, but Jesus never indicated he was the rock in which is church was to be built. That was Peter. Nor did Jesus ever mention that some dude would come along later to build his church and define all their dogma, least of all a Roman. You would think he would have tipped off the apostles that Paul would come along some decades later to completely jack up a good philosophical beginning to what Jesus has started, which was closer to neo-paganism than modern day Christianity.

In her first and second thread she talks about how the bible is so amazing that it lays out "god's calendar". Watching her attached video, one notices right away that they are describing the pure lunar calendar, well known to the ancient world millennia before the bible was canonized. She sites this as a miracle of god that he should have inspired the writers of the bible into describing how the months, weeks, and days of the year should be laid out. The video goes on to say, "Isn’t it sad that we do not use god's calendar today?"

It's ridiculous and embarrassing for her that she should point this fact out, but doesn't even realize it. She doesn’t, and probably can’t, understand that it was the modern church (Gregory) who modified the calendar from an astronomical one used throughout the ancient world to the one we use today. We would have 13 months for the 13 lunar cycles a year if it wasn't for the very church she honors so much. She acts as though the bible was the first time anyone had laid out a calendar. I gave her links to web sites that prove, and I have seen with my own eyes in Ireland, that these calendars existed some 13,000 years ago. How arrogant and stupid to think that the words in the bible were the first time man crawled out of ignorance and made calendars based on astronomy. It’s a real joke and I wouldn’t waste your time even trying to justify a rational position against people who are so ignorant and slow. It’s like trying to argue with a bag of rocks.

[removed my own sniping]


[edit on 5-3-2010 by JonInMichigan]

For the love of gods, why a new thread?

Speaking of which...

Why would one who is educated in science to the level that you are choose to exercise a belief in multiple unprovable entities, let alone just one.

I can kind of get on board with a Catholic scientist, or a Bishop who is a physicist. I know these people, and I've addressed them concerning the dichotomy. Their explanations have been satisfactory to me, though I still don't quite get it.

I don't mean any disrespect, but a Druid?... Really? Are you just really bored?

BTW, this thread should probably just be closed due to redundancy.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
For the love of gods, why a new thread?

Speaking of which...

Why would one who is educated in science to the level that you are choose to exercise a belief in multiple unprovable entities, let alone just one.

I can kind of get on board with a Catholic scientist, or a Bishop who is a physicist. I know these people, and I've addressed them concerning the dichotomy. Their explanations have been satisfactory to me, though I still don't quite get it.

I don't mean any disrespect, but a Druid?... Really? Are you just really bored?

BTW, this thread should probably just be closed due to redundancy.

How about this: it takes a very intelligent person who also has a deeply spiritual side to want to seek their own path. Neo-Pagans and Druids understand that there are mysteries and mystical things in the world but those mystical things make far more sense us than the narrative being espoused by the Christian faith.

Many mystical things are not in conflict with science. Study quantum-mechanics for a while and you will discover just how mystical science has become these days. Reality is quite frequently effected by the observer and the participants’ awareness and perception of reality in and of itself affects what most people consider to be the “absolute truths” in the world.

Many of us, not to speak for the OP, do not view our god(s/esses) as literal entities watching and waiting to serve us or control us. Many times they are merely age-old archetypes for different manifestations of the energy of the universe. Many of us believe it is, in fact, US that brings these deity archetypes into being when needed, to serve our needs and purposes in the world. They give us focus in our energy work and a deep connection to our past and ancestry. But not all pagans believe the same or practice the same. I know many who do believe in calling down a very real deity that lives in some other realm. I personally believe the god(s), or if a Christian, the saints, represent a focal archetypes for prayer or magical work. What I don’t believe is that eating meat on Friday will cause me to burn in a pit of fire for all of eternity.

[edit to add:]

I forgot the most important thing. I have a masters of science degree in electrical engineering. I work as an applied scientist and engineer so I can relate to the OP. Techno-pagans are very common. Whereas people of science used to become Atheists, many of us have strong spiritual roots but are disgusted by modern church paradigms so we flock to alternate spiritual paths.


[edit on 5-3-2010 by JonInMichigan]

You know, the real mystery is in where all of these religions spawned from originally. Why do so many of them share the same sentiments about judgment, afterlife, good and evil, etc.? I really think the biggest deception of all time is in the fact that all of these religions are false in some way, shape, or form. They might share the same resounding themes, but where do they come from really? I understand the concept of sun worship and the fact that over millenia, this worship has branched off into several different religions. But which one is the correct one? Which one is the false one? Do we even know?

I really think that Melissa would get much more respect for her thread if she could provide concrete evidence for her claims. Now, I hope this doesn't turn into a bashing thread for this woman. She is strong in her convictions, and I will give her that. Do I believe anything she says? Absolutely not. But in the same respect, I don't know if I believe anything ANY religion says. It seems to me that they are all connected somehow, and this connection always comes back to the fact that they have all historically been about a higher caste (priests, mystics, etc.) controlling a lower caste in the hopes of gaining more power. I mean, the goal of mankind (whether he knows it or not) is to gain enough power to shed morality all together. Whether is be the MSM, or a religion, or science even, the goal is to shut down those that think "outside the box." I just have a hard time believing any form of religion, and I'm even starting to question why the human race is even here.

Anyway, just my two cents. Please don't let this become a Melissa bashing thread, because I do respect her for putting herself "on the chopping block" as it were.


-truthseeker

Just my 2 cents. If anyone is offended by my remarks, guess what…I don’t give a rat’s ass. There’s no hope for you

reply to post by JonInMichigan


I loved your logic, your concise explanations, and your rational arguments in your post. Was right along with you, nodding my head in agreement, until this statement.

Why go through all the trouble of explaning your belief if you don't care what other's think? This makes no sense to me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

reply to post by rogerstigers


The simple answer is that the other threads had become bogged down, and the author seemed to be missing some questions posted to her. QED create a thread where I could reply to BOTH of the threads.

reply to post by DeltaChaos



Why would I not? Am I not allowed to realize that there is more to the Universe than I can comprehend with Science?

Druidism and Druidry (one is the philosophy which may be applied to various spiritual beliefs, and the other is the distinct spiritual approach) both embrace the quest for knowledge. Science is theoretically not a religion, it is a set of tools, which may help elucidate the way the world and universe works. Science should never try to “prove” or “disprove” something, as both require belief, Science deals with probabilities, thus 99.99… is as good as it gets, never 100%, and proof or disproof requires an absolute belief, that is outside the area Science can deal with.

Folks, many of you think this is redundant. That is your right. However don't turn this to an attack on the poster of the other threads. Rather disect her arguments. As I have said the other two threads are bogged down, there are straw men all over the place, and those tend to catch fire, and while I would love to pakc them with war prisoners, I'm not going to

Thus here or there, go after the premiss not the person. Be that person me or Melisa.

Mmm kay

Slan

Gareth

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Just my 2 cents. If anyone is offended by my remarks, guess what…I don’t give a rat’s ass. There’s no hope for you

reply to post by JonInMichigan

 

I loved your logic, your concise explanations, and your rational arguments in your post. Was right along with you, nodding my head in agreement, until this statement.

Why go through all the trouble of explaning your belief if you don't care what other's think? This makes no sense to me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Thanks. You're right. My bad. I DO care about what people have to say or I wouldn't post. I hope it wouldn't be "too" wrong for me to edit that out of my post.

Melissa just really got under my skin. We live in a time in which people don't seem to care about facts... those are the ones I don't like to argue with. This goes for religion, politics, and modern day beliefs that are almost religious in nature. Take for instance, not to derail anything, the man-made global warming debate.
Even after the scientist at the center of the controversy said, "we have not shown the Earth warming since the 80s", there are people coming out saying "I don't care about the facts. It just seems like lowering our emissions at any cost is important for world-economic justice."

Whaaa whaa what?

It’s same thing with these religious debates. I often bring up the fact that I don't really see why Paul is given the license that he took in directing the beliefs and dogma of the early Christian church. He never even met Jesus! Jesus never mentioned that this great leader of his church would come along and direct most of their policy decisions. He was self-appointed, justified by a vision he had while he was taking his trek to Damascus. Next time a Christian quotes scripture at you, ask yourself, “What book is that?” Romans? Paul. Corinthians? Paul. Actually the closest we get to Jesus is Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John and those are second hand accounts.

I would recommend the highly debated Book of the Essenes who recant a man coming to hang out with them that fits Jesus’ description. Contemporary to Jesus’ lifetime and only 40 miles out in the desert, one has to wonder if this is where Jesus went on his vision quests in the desert. It is, after all, where John the Baptist used to go and he was Jesus’ buddy. These books were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. If these books to contain Jesus’ personal words, all I can say is Wow! I have read them and they are somewhat different than one would expect. They are very mystical and bitterly militant against the Pharisees and the Romans. No one can prove they are his words but if anything they are probably closer to his general sentiment than those of Paul the roman who wandered into the picture late in the game and rewrote a Jewish reformation movement into an ultra-fundamentalist paganized revival of a small Jewish sect.

As for Melissa, I don’t want to bash her. I know I am a little and for that I’m sorry. She is very convicted in her beliefs but she did try to mount an academic debate from a purely faith-based position, which in my mind, just begged to be squashed flat.



[edit on 5-3-2010 by JonInMichigan]

reply to post by JonInMichigan


I am reminded of a passage in the Bible which mentions people who say "Lord Lord" yet God says "I do not know you". Forgive my fuzzy memory but it does seem to describe people like this. People who pound their chest, hold the Bible high and say "This is what the Lord has said" yet what they preach is false and those who follow what they preach are led astray for want of personal understanding.

The saddest part is that all the information required to gain a good understanding of their religion is available to them yet they would rather condemn that which they are ignorant of.

The latin phrase in my signature refers to this, it essentially states that "Dogs will always bark at strangers."

Thanks. You're right. My bad. I DO care about what people have to say or I wouldn't post. I hope it wouldn't be "too" wrong for me to edit that out of my post.

reply to post by JonInMichigan


Not at all.....we've all had those days when we need to redo things.

Now, going back to read more of your stuff.