The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Fact or Fiction?

Fair Dinkum

Originally posted by smallpeeps
"Authentic" means what, exactly?

When in doubt...

Dictionary.com

au·then·tic
adj.

1. Conforming to fact and therefore worthy of trust, reliance, or belief: an authentic account by an eyewitness.
2. Having a claimed and verifiable origin or authorship; not counterfeit or copied: an authentic medieval sword.
3. Law. Executed with due process: an authentic deed.
4. Music.

1. Of, relating to, or being a medieval mode having a range from its final tone to the octave above it.
2. Of, relating to, or being a cadence with the dominant chord immediately preceding the tonic chord.

5. Obsolete. Authoritative.

Let's go with sense 2.

Unreliable But Trustworthy

Originally posted by smallpeeps
BUT, the question becomes this: If it was written by someone else, but the content of the text is based in fact, then one can assume the writer/cobbler of the Prot's has at least as much credibility as George Orwell? I find the protocols to be more insightful than Animal Farm, yet one's a classic and one's not even allowed to be discussed.

We're discussing the Protocols right here, right now, and nobody's stopping us.

The question of their authenticity is very much on-topic, so I don't understand what you mean by "not even allowed to be discussed" -- unless you're referring to Animal Farm, maybe?

I know of no prohibition against either on ATS -- and certainly not on PTS! :shk:

The idea of "even if they're fake, they're rooted in truth" seems suspect to me. We went through that with Project Serpo -- the same claim was made ("percentage of truth"). And just like the Protocols, that claim described a fraud.

Why should anyone trust an author or source which deliberately sets out to deceive?

Even if the Protocols are "prophetic" when viewed with hindsight (and I'm skeptical about that claim), that doesn't mean that they were true, merely that it's possible to believe that they predicted historical events -- which is itself a rather specious claim in light of how much of what appears in the Protocols bears no resemblance to any reality, historical or otherwise.

Seven years go in 1999, The Simpsons showed a scene of Sigfried and Roy being mauled by a white tiger ("Viva Ned Flanders").

Just because Roy Horn was actually mauled by a white tiger four years later doesn't mean it happened because a similar scene appeared in The Simpsons, or that The Simpsons somehow caused or predicted the attack.

The same goes for the Protocols, and I hope I'm adequately exposing logical fallacy of this (please let me know if I'm not). The writing style alone gives an awful lot away.

The Protocols read like fiction because they were written like fiction.

A Brief History Of Jews

As for the rest of your comments (yes, I cherry-picked my replies), I think many of them run somewhat afield of this topic and I'd prefer instead to focus on the authenticity of the Protocols.

However, that doesn't mean I'm trying to "suppress" anything. :shk:

I think much of what you posted could make for one or more excellent topics in themselves -- on PTS, I hope (try to work politics in there somehow).

There seems to be a perception that I'm out to discourage discussion of Israel/Jews/Zionism/Whatever, but that's not true.

Actually, I don't think there's enough (rational) discussion of these topics, and that this deficit is itself responsible for a lot of problems we could do without.

So please, anyone reading this: if you want to talk about these things, let's talk about them.

Start a thread (on PTS ) and let's get to it!




P.S. I tend to come off as a bit "crisp" in debate mode, but please don't be put off by that. My posts are too long as it is, and if I took any longer to get to the point, we'd be here until the end of time. So please excuse my bluntness.

P.P.S. I used to feel it myself, so I know the feeling: I know it can be intimidating to get into a hot and heavy argument with a super mod.

Please accept my sincere, heartfelt and highly public assurance that I have not, don't and never will use my position as a moderator to abuse, harass or retaliate against any member for any reason -- especially not for having a different opinion. The Amigos wouldn't just ban me for that, they'd kill me.

So please don't worry about any of that (and file a complaint if you should ever see me misbehaving). If any of us should inadvertently run afoul of the T&C in a moment of passion while discussing such a touchy topic (including me -- I'm human too), we'll try to be cool about it (just try not to post porn or strings of invective, or you know, stuff like that ).

No one should feel afraid to express themselves here, even controversial opinions. As long as we do so in accordance with the T&C (and again, we try not to be overbearing about it), we're golden.

[edit on 8/14/2006 by Majic]

Originally posted by Majic
But what I take strenuous exception to is the bigotry which holds that because there are powerful Jews in the world, all Jews are in on it and trying to take over the world.

The Protocols are used to bolster this self-deceptive mindset.

You should never judge a book by it's cover, but um, surprisingly enough, the Title of "The Protocols of Zion" is "The Protocols of Zion", Zion majic, not jews, jewish, judaism, semite, Judaical, or any other synonym. And I'm off topic?!? You not only herein personify the problem you profess is inherent here, you again, quite candidly, exemplify the patterned behavior we discussed/denied previously. So without further ado, I bestow upon you the Esteemed Godwin Award. You've given so many out, I honestly wonder if we have any left to give you. You are also a favored nominee for the hallowed Golden Hypocrite... Man giving out these awards is a blast, I can appreciate the joy you must take in awarding them to so many people now, I'm absolutely rubicund with juvenile contempt!

Originally posted by Majic
AmI a "Semitophile"... Iobject to Nazis... my disdain for the ignorant... I've already apologized...my own "slip"... my own personal disgust...I will never apologize....I oppose bigotry... Ihappen to oppose ...I oppose bigotry...review my posts ...my opposition to bigotry...I oppose bigotry... I can tell... me as a person...proving me wrong...a referendum on me... I've posted in other threads... me on trial here?... Am I truly wrong... I consider false. ... Ithink they're false... I challenge you... I've already agreed... Isee no reason to beat a dead horse.... am I to understand ... I've agreed to focus on the topic... my own off-topic lapses....I'masking that we address...had a blast talking about me... I've seen in this thread... Myanswer to the question ... I'mconvinced ... supporting my opinion... I have referenced above.... I want to know...please tell me.

My god man, and you ask me why you are on trial here?? Actually, you're not, you've asked provisions be made of some examples, to search your post history (you even provided a link), in order to exemplify this patterned behavior, and I did that just that. Be careful what you ask for, somebody might deliver. So don't try to hand me that 'why are you attacking me' flim-flam.

However to avoid further drama, or more appropriately, to appease you, back to the topic at hand...
You asked me if the protocols are fact or fiction, and despite the fact that I already answered that question consecutively for three posts running, and again my final answer here is that it doesn't matter to me because the implications of the Protocols are VERY Real. You can't conclusively proove they aren't legitimate any more than I can proove they are legitimate. If there was definitive proof of the validity of their origins, this wouldn't be a nine page thread man. But I can proove the implications of the work, and I've done a damned fine job of it if I do say so myself.
Did Francis Bacon write The Merchant of Venice? Who knows, but somebody did didn't they? Is it complete fiction? Who knows, but you can bet your arse Merchants were as real as the city of Venice was.
Lest you swoon, grasp firmly the chair beneath you and suppose then for just an inkling of a moment that they are legitimate, perhaps a leaked document of sorts, would you deny that there would be a great vested interest in having them declared forgeries? If you plotted such grandiose subversions that the costs would be in millions of lives, would not the condemnation of such revealing works as the protocols of your organization be an upmost priority? Hell yes.
Are they fake? Who knows. One thing is clear however, the Zionist plot to rule the world is at least as old as Deuteronomy which mentions much the same protocols and that book is pretty damned real.
In fact, The Talmud is real. Zionism is Real. World Domination through subversive Finance and Warfare is Real. The 'Nation' your tax money calls Israel is Real. The Blood spilled to create it is Real. International Finance is Real. Freemasonry's Zionist roots and Agenda are Real. Speculation of Industry is Real. World Government is Real. Centralized State Mandated Required Public Education is Real.
Centralization and Consolidation of The Coporate Media is Real. Centralization and Consolidation of Coporate Printing and Publishing is Real. Destruction of Existing Religions is Real (Christmaskah?). To make a long list shorter, when you can take topic by topic, a supposed work of fiction and apply it to the world around you with astonishing prophetic accuracy, then fake or not, like it or not, right or not, the work becomes canonized. When you can take that work and demonstrate its entirety to be accurately portrayed in the fiction, it becomes factual in and of itself, doesn't it? So yeah, I think they are real enough regardless of thier origin or author. They may be forgeries, but so was Nigerian Yellow Cake Uranium, they may be fake, but so was the little vial of 'Anthrax' Colin held up at the UN, and THE BOMBS FELL NEVERTHELESS. They Might be Fiction, but so was Uncle Tom's Cabin. Lewis Carroll might have been tripping his lid off on Absynthe and Mushrooms, and yet down the Rabbit Hole we go. Do you not understand the point? They may indeed be fake, but they are nonetheless accurate.

Shall we play a game?
If you ever find yourself feeling uncharacteristicly open minded about this topic, and have a moment to spare, read this page...
100777.com...
At the bottom of the rest of the page you probably aren't reading all of, is a copy of the protocols themselves. Take any one of the 24 protocols there, just pick one, and bring it back here and I'll show you something not so fictional about it. If you can find one that I can't show a modern reference to the reality thereof, then you win and I'll actually type the words "Majic You Win" and present them to you in a little flashing .gif with dancing anime hamspters for you. If I win, then you have to personally, publicly and individually apologise to anyone you gave your silly slighted Godwin Award to.

Argumentum Ad Topicum

Sorry, but I got lost among the ad hominem invective, non sequiturs and other tangles that I'm really not interested in trying to sort through.

I'm still not sure about your actual opinion on the topical question: Fact or fiction?

It's a simple question. "Fact", "fiction" or "I'm not sure" would be fine.

Granted, it's an optional question which you don't have to answer, but I really would like a straight answer if one is available.

Yes, I'm honestly curious.


Edit: Oops! Sorry, I think this is it:

Originally posted by twitchy
You asked me if the protocols are fact or fiction, and despite the fact that I already answered that question consecutively for three posts running, and again my final answer here is that it doesn't matter to me because the implications of the Protocols are VERY Real.

Emphasis mine.

Okay, I think I get it. As for all the other stuff, no thanks. :shk:




P.S. Off-topic again (yeah, I'm a sinner too), I think your point about the Godwin Awards was well-made, and I'll take it to heart. While I intended to use them to call attention to Nazi-related thread-derailing (i.e., someone mentions Nazis and the discussion devolves into name-calling and finger-pointing), you're right to point out that they are also ad hominem in nature. So I'll try to refrain from such behavior in the future. Though I would prefer it be delivered differently, thanks for the feedback.

[edit on 8/14/2006 by Majic]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Twitchy - OK, Communism - I know it sucks! But you are not blaming the Jews as a whole for the Creation of "Communism" are you?

Jews...Zionists. Two very different Groups. You should be intimately familiar with the difference by now surely. As to blame, for Communism? No. Bolshevism, certainly. I take it you live in a COMMUNIty somewhere though, and actually Communism is a Red Herring. And no you certainly can't blame the world's problems on one group of people, you can however blame the world for letting one group become globally problematic though. That group has scarcely little to do with Judaism however and I'll say it again ad nauseum, Zionism is the problem, not Judaism.
Aren't you a Freemason?
Ma-ha-Bologna.

Originally posted by Majic
There are definitely Jews and Zionists in high places and in control of massive amounts of wealth and power.

But what I take strenuous exception to is the bigotry which holds that because there are powerful Jews in the world, all Jews are in on it and trying to take over the world.

I agree. However, that hasnt happened, not in this thread Im sure! Who is saying, here on this thread, that all Jews are in on it?

You say you have many Jewish friends Majic, how many of them are related to Rothschild or any other powerful famliy? Probably none right? Well we all (for the most part) know that. Half my family are Jewish, although I am not (great grandfather was Dutch Jew, female side tends to be Hungarian Catholic), but it doesnt stop me from understanding where the power is at. Or the understanding that not all Jews are in on it. In fact Id go further to say that this elite group have chosen the Jews to hide behind, made them their special chosen meat shield.

The Protocols are used to bolster this pernicious and deceitful mindset.

I agree. The Protocols have been used, by this ruling elite no less, to promote anti-semitism and to get exactly where we are today.

Jews...Zionists. Two very different Groups.

Yes - I know.

You should be intimately familiar with the difference by now surely.

Yes I am - thanks for asking.

INFINITE,

NICE WORK

I have read you posts and your views are a lot similar to mine!


===============================================

with best regards,

OIM

Hate works incredibly well. Divide and conquer. Just remember the solution is: United we stand- divided we fall.

Relax guys.

The discussion "fake or real" is so very secondary. The METHODS contained in those protocols have been used, are being used and will be used for centuries to come. They are standard machiavellian conspiracy measures.

All these experts running around calling "fake!" and "forged" is idiocy. The wicked effectiveness of the methods is apparent.

Which group of people one ascribes them too...thats where it gets controversial. And I would say that any group, race, organization could be accused of applying some of those methods.

Misusing the documents in order to brand a race of people is of course a sort of conspiracy in itself.


What I am truly, sincerely, wholly sick of is the stereotypical two-sided debate on this topic. Its either the "they are fake!" shouters or the "its them evil jews" shouters. Neither of those sides are correct.

I think this was written by a truth seeker to show how evil this conspiracy is. It seems a bit too lucky that it surfaced at all. I mean, this is the most top secret organization in the world and "oops" we just leaked our most important document.

Originally posted by Dae

Originally posted by Majic
There are definitely Jews and Zionists in high places and in control of massive amounts of wealth and power.

But what I take strenuous exception to is the bigotry which holds that because there are powerful Jews in the world, all Jews are in on it and trying to take over the world.

I agree. However, that hasnt happened, not in this thread Im sure! Who is saying, here on this thread, that all Jews are in on it?

You say you have many Jewish friends Majic, how many of them are related to Rothschild or any other powerful famliy? Probably none right? Well we all (for the most part) know that. Half my family are Jewish, although I am not (great grandfather was Dutch Jew, female side tends to be Hungarian Catholic), but it doesnt stop me from understanding where the power is at. Or the understanding that not all Jews are in on it. In fact Id go further to say that this elite group have chosen the Jews to hide behind, made them their special chosen meat shield.

The Protocols are used to bolster this pernicious and deceitful mindset.

I agree. The Protocols have been used, by this ruling elite no less, to promote anti-semitism and to get exactly where we are today.

It goes back to the Middle Ages and the ban on usury. Look up how Jew's in Medieval Europe where always under the Direct rule of the national monarch. In Britain it is a bit clearer. The Crown used Jew's(which they barred from every single profession/job) to act as "bankers"/loan sharks to gather as much wealth as possible. And then once either a) The Crown ran up a huge tab, b) A huge amount of money was hoarded or C) the Crown needed more money and didn't want to go to Parliament, they would raid their piggy bank under the guise of antisemitism.

They merely used Jewish people to do the things that if they themselves tried(outrageous taxes or loans with outrageous interest rates), they would of either been over thrown, excommunicated or burned alive(not exactly in that order either).

It stands to reason that they would continue such a strategy well into the modern era.

Example of what I have been saying about the IP network, and the gems floating on the seabed, just waiting to be bounced. This is a four year old gem, which just got bounced.

And why did it settle to the bottom of the IP ocean? This thread, so quiet for 4 years?

Because the final post, so heavy with truth, just anchored the subject with so much truth-weight, that nobody could say anything in return.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Relax guys.

The discussion "fake or real" is so very secondary. The METHODS contained in those protocols have been used, are being used and will be used for centuries to come. They are standard machiavellian conspiracy measures.

All these experts running around calling "fake!" and "forged" is idiocy. The wicked effectiveness of the methods is apparent.

Which group of people one ascribes them too...thats where it gets controversial. And I would say that any group, race, organization could be accused of applying some of those methods.

Misusing the documents in order to brand a race of people is of course a sort of conspiracy in itself.


What I am truly, sincerely, wholly sick of is the stereotypical two-sided debate on this topic. Its either the "they are fake!" shouters or the "its them evil jews" shouters. Neither of those sides are correct.

And yet, here we get the user above, who bounces this gem,

and then I bounce this gem again with this post...

But actually the posts that follow mine, will be more of the same churn, that gave up four years ago.

It is folly to blame the Prot's on Maurice Joly. Joly's ghost hates that. Many truths are fiction but are actually "desired blueprints"... I have written on the IP network that Atlas Shrugged was such a blueprint hidden as fiction. Also other books and works like "Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars" which are said to be "fiction" yet which do sketch a very true skeletal framework of what operates.

In the occult way, the victim has to bare their neck. The obedient, willing, consenting victim, has far more ritual power. The way to get people to do this, is to follow "a story" aka "fiction" and then they are actually working on a blueprint.

Blueprints as you may know, are just precisely detailed imaginary constructs. No blueprint, can shelter a human. But blueprints can rob and kill humans. It only takes a blueprint of a scheme, to capture the loosh, to capture the soul. And in this way, does the item of the blueprint's fiction, actually come to life.

All fiction essentially, is potential blueprint. That is truth.

They are the kings of media, kings of porn, highly influential in congress, shrewd money changers (to this day) lookin at you goldman sachs, Bernanke, Greenspan, Geitner etc. They are winy and tenacious and won't relent until they get their way. I have never met a jew in the trades, to me this suggests they don't like to put in a little sweat equity. Didn't mean to veer off topic but in my observation industries that serve to demoralize and degrade societies like porn, strip clubs, gambling, brothels, legalized loan sharking, black market, etc. are rife with jews. An extremely small population dominate perverted businesses and practices we could do without. The protocols then seem to me to be valid. The jews seem to be driven by their religion of usury and dominance.

Originally posted by MaxJohnson
[...]

The jews seem to be the driven by their religion of usury and dominance.

Hmm, I'd like to insert a new meme-phoneme here:

"Hyperkoshers"

Because it is hyperkosherism or superkosherism (they are not the same, hyper and super) which drives these two things you mention "usury and dominance"

Hmmm.

Then there is Suprakosherism would would mean above and beyond regular or superkosherism. "Supra" means beyond. I seem to recall Hitler or one of his teachers saying "It is I who determines what is a Jew and what is not!" ...I can't remember if its Hitler or one of his puppeteers/allies who said this.

There seems to be a story where in 1934 Hitler was surprised by the racial-purity-bushwack-laws in which % of Jewishness suddenly meant your life or death? Yes, this would be an analogy for "Superkosher" and one could fall out either on one side of it or the other. And then if one definition of "Jew", wins over the other, it would be "supra-kosher" meaning beyond Moses himself, one assumes.

However, what was before Moses? Before "Genesis", what was there? Noah? And what was the book of Noah? And what was before flood?

It is up to us, what point of time, in history, and what events, are the pivot or load balancing point of our persona. By persona I mean you, you and your self. To what, is the notion of "self", buttoned? And with what fingers, shall the self, unbutton that button? And shall sometimes the human, button up their whole shirt, and only then, realize they have "done the buttons wrong". and the whole shirt needs to be unbuttoned, and then, buttoned correctly? I think we have all felt that feeling, of having participated in buttoning a shirt with our two hands, and having buttoned all the row of buttons, incorrectly. And when we realize that truth, and have a paradigm shift, do we unbutton the wrongly-buttoned buttons, one by one, going down the row? Do we follow the same methods, that got us there? Then, having unbuttoned one by one, and corrected the wrong-buttoning, do we then make even sure that the first button is truly the one destined for that correct buttonhole? And as we have ensured from the start of the second attempt at buttoning, that we have the right button and the right buttonhole, and we begin the again-buttoning (as it may be called), do we again, fall trancelike, into the buttoning? And have we made sure, the the first button was connected? For if one error be made, does not the iteration of that error, call forth future potential need-for-unbuttoning? I think you may reread this paragraph and imagine that I am writing fiction? Now I wonder, how many children are named, "button"? And how many languages can that word be known? And how many languages have been spoken as some child said "Oh darn! I buttoned my shirt wrongly?" Anyone who has gone to church, may relate to what I'm laying down here. God bless you, and Merry Christmas 2011 to you.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by MaxJohnson
[...]

The jews seem to be the driven by their religion of usury and dominance.

Hmm, I'd like to insert a new meme-phoneme here:

"Hyperkoshers"

Because it is hyperkosherism or superkosherism (they are not the same, hyper and super) which drives these two things you mention "usury and dominance"

Hmmm.

Then there is Suprakosherism would would mean above and beyond regular or superkosherism. "Supra" means beyond. I seem to recall Hitler or one of his teachers saying "It is I who determines what is a Jew and what is not!" ...I can't remember if its Hitler or one of his puppeteers/allies who said this.

There seems to be a story where in 1934 Hitler was surprised by the racial-purity-bushwack-laws in which % of Jewishness suddenly meant your life or death? Yes, this would be an analogy for "Superkosher" and one could fall out either on one side of it or the other. And then if one definition of "Jew", wins over the other, it would be "supra-kosher" meaning beyond Moses himself, one assumes.

However, what was before Moses? Before "Genesis", what was there? Noah? And what was the book of Noah? And what was before flood?

It is up to us, what point of time, in history, and what events, are the pivot or load balancing point of our persona. By persona I mean you, you and your self. To what, is the notion of "self", buttoned? And with what fingers, shall the self, unbutton that button? And shall sometimes the human, button up their whole shirt, and only then, realize they have "done the buttons wrong". and the whole shirt needs to be unbuttoned, and then, buttoned correctly? I think we have all felt that feeling, of having participated in buttoning a shirt with our two hands, and having buttoned all the row of buttons, incorrectly. And when we realize that truth, and have a paradigm shift, do we unbutton the wrongly-buttoned buttons, one by one, going down the row? Do we follow the same methods, that got us there? Then, having unbuttoned one by one, and corrected the wrong-buttoning, do we then make even sure that the first button is truly the one destined for that correct buttonhole? And as we have ensured from the start of the second attempt at buttoning, that we have the right button and the right buttonhole, and we begin the again-buttoning (as it may be called), do we again, fall trancelike, into the buttoning? And have we made sure, the the first button was connected? For if one error be made, does not the iteration of that error, call forth future potential need-for-unbuttoning? I think you may reread this paragraph and imagine that I am writing fiction? Now I wonder, how many children are named, "button"? And how many languages can that word be known? And how many languages have been spoken as some child said "Oh darn! I buttoned my shirt wrongly?" Anyone who has gone to church, may relate to what I'm laying down here. God bless you, and Merry Christmas 2011 to you.

Lay off the egg nog dude, merry Christmas to you too.

reply to post by MaxJohnson

Most people don't know the truth about the American slave trade.
Who brought the slaves to America?
By reciting the Kol Nidre, the Jew is empowered by their religion to disregard oaths and vows...

"May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths."

It is incredible that a group of people can belong to a religion and have beliefs whereby it is absolutely permissible to lie, cheat, kill, and steal from those that are not considered "men"... that is, nonJews.
The truth is not that hard to find, and we have been warned by the likes of Kennedy (secret societies) and Benjamin Friedman.
A Jewish defector warns America

The protocole pretty much alledge to be a translation. Can any trace of the original written in hebrew be found, or were they never written with hebrew letters?

Yay for 7 year old bumped hate threads!

Closed.