Forum Gang Activity On the Rise on Ats?

reply to post by SLAYER69

I believe there are people here at ATS with Agendas. That's for sure. I've never known a site that doesn't ATS is no different. No, I don't believe there are weaker members.

How about whole groups of people with the same agenda who work in concert with eachother to enforce their opinion and make everyone arrive at a conclusion that is their own?

You don't believe there are influential members who are easily intimidated by much more senior members and their opinions?

Originally posted by jackflap
How about whole groups of people with the same agenda who work in concert with eachother to enforce their opinion and make everyone arrive at a conclusion that is their own?

You don't believe there are influential members who are easily intimidated by much more senior members and their opinions?

That would be a sad thing if somebody is that weak minded that they could not make up their own mind on a topic or a subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, Is there some sort of topic enforcer monitoring individuals while they are sitting at their keyboards forcing them to accept anything written?

I've never been intimidated by any of the senior members. I think most of them have been cool. Even when I totally and completely disagree with their stance.



[edit on 1-3-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

That would be a sad thing if somebody is that weak minded that they could not make up their own mind on a topic or a subject.

How about if those weak minded individuals are made to feel silly about their position and felt as if they should not even be trying to entertain the idea that they have because that gang knows better and they all agree how silly the member is for having that idea.

I have seen it. I have seen threads taken so far off topic as to discredit the entire opening post and the members who were participating in it scatter. Who knows what they are left thinking at that point. You've never come across such nonsense?

One of the early fixes was realizing the IP address of several players were coming from the same house. Probably three people side by side, all able to see the cards each one has on their screens. Seeing three full hands makes it easy to read the deck.

What a dastardly and Cunning plan! Worthy of Baldrick/Blackadder !

Only gutless intellectually deficient cowards need to band together, attack others and pat eachother on the back to get their insidious points across. This site has its fair share of these creeps and obviously the ownership is not interested in doing anything about it, since it appears they are catering to the lowest common denominator.

The formula here is simple: mix in some truth with a bunch of horsesh** and detour everyone away from the real issues and the truth. Anyone can go on some phony rant about being pissed off about the trolls on the site. However, when you constantly allow these Neanderthals to continue their juvenile and underhanded methods, the real message to those trying to have a mature, productive and frank discussion is loud and clear.

Unfortunately, most people are too stupid to realize they are being bounced around like a ping pong ball, being influenced to draw conclusions which others want them to arrive at. When the sewers start to overflow, it is best not to hang around and get swept up by the muck. You're better off running for the hills, hoping not to get contaminated by the toxic sludge.

Originally posted by jackflap
How about if those weak minded individuals are made to feel silly about their position and felt as if they should not even be trying to entertain the idea that they have because that gang knows better and they all agree how silly the member is for having that idea.

Are there weak minded individuals here? We haven't been able to confirm that. I cannot speak to whether an individual feels silly or not. I wouldn't know.

I have seen it. I have seen threads taken so far off topic as to discredit the entire opening post and the members who were participating in it scatter. Who knows what they are left thinking at that point. You've never come across such nonsense?

I've been the victim of having quite a few of my threads, [more than a couple dozen] of my threads hijacked. I feel the pain. I learned early on though that I myself fed into it by being the thread poster by answering off topic comments which bread more off topic comments then before you know it the entire thread is off topic.

So then those who usual complain the loudest are sometimes the ones who have done it the most. Even when it's not been noticed by the complainer.

reply to post by SLAYER69

So then those who usual complain the loudest are sometimes the ones who have done it the most. Even when it's not been noticed by the complainer.

I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the person who complains about forum gangs is the person who has participated in a forum gang before?

Originally posted by jackflap


I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the person who complains about forum gangs is the person who has participated in a forum gang before?

No....

Not Forum gangs.

Going Off topic.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Going off topic and working in concert with other members to purposely belittle people and their opinions are two very different things. We have recently gone off topic in a thread and managed to get it back on topic. That is not the issue or the topic of this thread. We are talking about forum gangs and how they work with eachother to push their agenda on weaker members or make members feel silly about trying to learn about a topic. Have you ever seen such nonsense like that?

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Going off topic and working in concert with other members to purposely belittle people and their opinions are two very different things. We have recently gone off topic in a thread and managed to get it back on topic. That is not the issue or the topic of this thread.

Yeah I know you brought it up here. You wrote...

I have seen it. I have seen threads taken so far off topic as to discredit the entire opening post and the members who were participating in it scatter. Who knows what they are left thinking at that point. You've never come across such nonsense?

I answered your off topic question here

I've been the victim of having quite a few of my threads, [more than a couple dozen] of my threads hijacked. I feel the pain. I learned early on though that I myself fed into it by being the thread poster by answering off topic comments which bread more off topic comments then before you know it the entire thread is off topic.

Now I'll reply to this...

We are talking about forum gangs and how they work with eachother to push their agenda on weaker members or make members feel silly about trying to learn about a topic. Have you ever seen such nonsense like that?

Well there you go with the "Weaker " member. Are there weaker members?

Second you know a "Forum Gang can be two or more members"



[edit on 1-3-2010 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69

I answered your off topic question here

It wasn't off topic I was referring to a gang doing this. You know when a group of people purposely derail a thread.

Yes there are weaker members and members who at times feel intimidated.

reply to post by jackflap


Thanks to tools such as skype and other off-cite chat applications, being in a forum gang is easier than ever.

Forum gangs can coordinate attacks on other members using off-site tools and leave no evidence on the site wherein they find their victims. This factor means that we are always left with the plausible theory that any suspicions of gang-like behaviours are therefore 'unfounded' (unprovable using only ATS) and likely the result of 'like-mindedness'.

*The mods have probably caught a few dumb enough to use the u2u system to coordinate attacks - but the majority of them likely use methods that render ATS unable to acquire any evidence of conspiracy beyond that which could be plausibly explained away as a series of coincidences.

Clever....

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


G'day ProtoplasmicTraveler

I try not to get involved in Middle East oriented threads because I don't find them very enjoyable because of some the material that is posted in them.

However I recently felt sorry for a member who appeared to be getting "beaten up" pretty badly in one by 2 or 3 members who were posting some shocking stuff (one even got banned as a result).

So.....

I decided to post some commentary to help support that member.

Now I guess that could almost be said I was the beginning of a "gang up", especially if another member or 2 also decided to support the member getting "beaten up".

So, I'm think that perhaps something like that could look like an organised "gang up", when it's not.

Kind regards
Maybe...maybe not

[edit on 1-3-2010 by Maybe...maybe not]

OK sorry-- haven't read the whole thread and probably won't. The only reason I'm posting is because it's from you guys. I quit the political threads along time ago. Not that there weren't replies and posts of a discussion nature, trying to find those posts in between the mortar fire just became too time consuming. So now maybe the worst has happened and i am bound by my own opinions.....

i believe people cry agenda when their own views fail to impress or are quickly dismembered like a cow in a raptor pen (jurassic park)...

my concern is the politics of the forums become more important than the issues being discussed. admittedly it has much to do with the inability of people to stay on topic and not bring personal emotions into arguments with the opponent. i have been guilty of these things in the past.

ats has effectively become a mini-government policed by the moderators and ruled by the administrators. we, the masses can run around like a bunch of headless chickens looking for our craniums all awhile conforming to the rules set by which we must conduct ourselves.

this is the Land of BS and Honey

I just want to say to all the gang members out there;

Boy, boy, crazy boy,
Get cool, boy!
Got a rocket in your pocket,
Keep coolly cool, boy!
Don't get hot,
'Cause man, you got
Some high times ahead.
Take it slow and Daddy-O,
You can live it up and die in bed!



-m0r

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I've noticed this myself. These people are not interested in the truth. It's basically their way or the high way, as they're only posting to spread their hatred and ignorance. This kind of behaviour is really sad and you can't reason with these people, so it's best just to ignore them.

I agree with silent thunder. Avoid threads about wars & specifically those about the middle east, as they always go up in flames.

I don't know about forum gangs, but what I have noticed is a trend of people wanting "ATS to do something" when actually it may simply be the case that people have a differing opinion.

Yep. Thats right, thats what I said.

For instance, if someone starts a thread about Israel, there will be pro-Israeli posters and then there will be those who want to jump all over Israel at any given opportunity.

Oddly, those people with those views are likely to crop up on most threads involving Israel.

There are always going to be pro and anti factions and guess what - the people from each faction are more than likely going to agree with each other.

Remember the old saying - "Birds of a feather flock together" ? There is a reason for it.

Providing the posts are germaine to the topic, then whats the problem?

Now, personal attacks and insults are a different thing. (Bear in mind that simply having a different opinion is NOT a personal attack). If you see a personal attack alert it, and the staff will look at it.

Personal attacks is what the "forum gang" rule refers to in the main. If there are a group of posters singling out a certain individual for every single thing that they post then that is when staff are likely to take action.

People also need to bear in mind that, if you choose to respond to a personal attack with one of your own don't come crying "foul" if your post gets removed as well - that was one of the key points of SO's recent thread. You reap what you sow.

Some aspects of ATS require a thick skin. Its amazing how some people suddenly turn to tissue when they post a string opinion.

Polarisation of issues is a society problem. The last US presidential election was a typical example. Its time people re-learned how to listen instead of just rant. If - as it seems we are expected to sometimes - mods simply removed any post that disagreed with the OP the board would be akin to the grand canyon with pro threads and anti threads and nothing else.

ATS is a discussion board, not a one sided rant board.

And that is exactly why there is, and will never be a "negative starring" system.


[edit on 1/3/10 by neformore]

[edit on 1/3/10 by neformore]

I think there are a number of issues wrapped up in the OP's commentary. One of those would be the use/application of the stars.

Personally, I enjoy a good debate but have no use at all for an argument. I don't mind starring a post whether I agree with the points or not, IF it is well written and is not simply argumentative.

And star count is not in itself all that important, but it does reflect a certain degree of effort by someone who does more than leave the two-line minimum.

The use of the stars today, though, has sort of devolved and like was pointed out, are mostly applied as a form of high-fiving rather than a general show of appreciation for contributing to a fair exchange.

Now, there's nothing wrong with a high-five. Not at all. But IMO, the stars should also be a means of the members showing appreciation to their fellows on form in participation.

Even on a battlefield, there is honoring a noble opponent. At least, there used to be... as in, touché.

reply to post by neformore


First I can appreciate a good bit of what you are saying.

Second this is really meant to be more of a check up from the neck up type of thread for fellow members than it is an entreaty to the staff.

I posted it in Board Business to add a bit more seriousness to it.

What I am trying to do is to help some members see and find a line.

I will play Devil’s Advocate in some threads knowing full well that it’s such a passionate issue were people have strong opinions tinged with strong emotion and I am going to get ganged up on. Why do I choose to play Devil’s Advocate on occasion? 1. Because when people are inclined to overlook some very pertinent and relevant facts primarily for emotional reasons someone should be willing to speak to those pertinent and relevant facts and. 2. As an American I feel everyone and everything deserves and adequate defense. 3. Some of the staff and fellow members genuinely appreciate it because it A. helps raise the quality of the discussion B. can keep an important issue going and on the board highlighting it for other members to see. In fact a good number of my rounds of applause from staff come from playing Devil’s Advocate and putting on a decent defense.

So I know what it is like to be naturally ganged up on in an emotional and passionate issue and never let it get the best of me. If you decide to defend Roman Polanski in a thread (and I have) being then called a creep, and a pedophile, sicko, danger to society, etc., etc., are emotional responses you tend to expect.

You don’t look to call the Staff ‘Waambulance’ and I never do and you don’t look to make your argument by calling them names back. You just keep posting on the issues.

Yet when you are involved in enough such situations you can tell when a gang is naturally occurring as a mob.

Just like mobs will form on the street, they will form on the Internet and no that’s not a forum gang.

The people involved in that one situation on that one thread might privately communicate with one another regarding that particular thread and their thoughts and even coordinate efforts in response to those individual circumstances that have thrown them together and displayed through their posts that they have a like mind.

That’s still not a forum gang.

In my humble opinion a forum gang is a highly orchestrated thing where a group then forms of like minded individuals who are constantly on the hunt for certain people on certain topics and then begin to alert each other certain people are posting on certain topics.

It’s now no longer a natural reaction to a singular occurrence; rather it’s a proactive coordination of efforts in an ongoing shared agenda.

Even that is almost acceptable and understandable if all those like minded people are going to contribute genuine substantive debate on the issue.

But when they gang forms and coordinates to simply pick apart a particular posters posts, look to isolate any exploitable trivial issue in those posts and then start starring each other and claiming information that is proven to be false is actually factual simply because they are all prepared to ignore the evidence to essentially bait, derail and flame, and that effort is coordinated through private behind the scenes communications that’s a forum gang.

When they appear in thread after thread together gravitating towards a poster on their hit list, when 3 times more stars than posters appear on non substantive posts within minutes and sometimes seconds that’s not naturally occurring that’s being orchestrated, and when you have seen flash mobs operate on emotional issues, and then organized attempts to gang up on a poster there are tell tale differences like that.

Ultimately there really isn’t much that the staff can do in such situations especially if they are communicating through off site channels to coordinate their efforts.

I don’t even attempt to alert the staff to it, but try to handle it directly by appeals like these, public appeals aimed at those doing just that who do organize groups with U2U’s that basically say, “Star me, I will star you back I hate that guy” then the posts they are posting loose all objectivity, the debate looses all substance, and the people doing it simply don’t care.

In my humble opinion there are two forum gangs at work in Middle East Affairs. Posting patterns, starring, tactics, timing, number of participants all point to it.

What do I expect the ATS Staff to do about it? Nothing, what do I expect the people doing it to do, rethink and re-challenge themselves to provide quality on topic posts that focus on the topics, the actual post, and not simply the poster, and efforts to bait and derail.

Will this appeal work? Hard to say, where things like ego and agenda are involved, but I remain optimistic that some people will rethink and be true to the spirit of the site to deny ignorance and debate the topics and issues and remain civil and remain objective in their posts.

Call me an optimist, nothing ventured, nothing gained.




[edit on 1/3/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]