PROOF that Building 7 was demolished with explosives!!!

reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1


Henryco did describe where he got his samples. When I find the link I will post it.
When you use a magnet to separate magnetic dust from non-magnetic dust, you would expect contamination by iron. Because of this possibility, all the evidence of iron contaning spheres is suspect.
Henryco really wants to find thermite and believes that someone has sabotaged his samples because he can't get the DSC to show an exotherm.

reply to post by pteridine


You're now saying that a magnet created nano-thermite?

reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1


I am saying that use of a magnet makes the origin of any iron containing spheres suspect and that until Jones completes the proper experiments, and shows results, presence of thermite cannot be concluded. Jones has not published the results of the key experiments that he claimed to be doing last year.
If he gets DSC exotherms in an oxygen free environment, he can conclude reaction and must then show what the reaction is. After that he will have to show that the reaction was part of an intentional, planned event and that it could effect demolition of the WTC towers and building 7. The towers provided the largest amount of dust, by far, and there is no way of telling the origin of the chips, at this point. This will have to be done far more carefully than in the Bentham paper so that the work can be published in a mainstream journal. If he does not do this, he will continue to be ignored by the majority of the scientific community and chastised for poorly done work by the few who do read his papers. Right now, his claims of thermitic materials are not supported by his experimental data.

reply to post by pteridine


Performing the test in a vacuum is not the end all for these kinds of experiments. The procedure followed other scientific tests for thermite, that have already been performed. The results of Jones' tests are virtually identical to these other tests.

Your magnet diversion doesn't make any sense at all. The dust was already mixed together from the explosions that occurred at WTC 1 and 2. Pieces of the towers are literally embedded in other buildings, hundreds of feet away. I don't think a magnet is gonna "contaminate" the dust samples any more than they already were.

I'm completely lost by this new "magnet" theory. Are you suggesting that the elemental iron in Steven Jones' dust samples came from the magnet? Or that the woman in the apartment building had elemental iron chilling on her windowsill?

And it's already been made clear that fly ash is not a substitute for elemental iron. So, I'm at a loss as to what you're trying to get at.

Accelerated combustion of 2800 degrees F, resulting in molten elemental iron. This is not science that can be fudged with anything, let alone a magnet.

Yours,

THE AQUARIAN 1

Reply to Aquarian.....

The test would not be performed in a vacuum; only under a flow of argon or nitrogen.
Jones' analysis followed an analysis of a known sample of a nanoparticulate thermite in a silica matrix, not an unknown sample in a carbonaceous matrix. The DSC traces are not identical; they are not even close. Jones realizes his error and until it is rectified, his conclusions are not valid.
The results are not the same and Jones has concluded what he wanted to conclude without any evidence suporting those conclusions.
The DSC experiments must be done first to rule out other sources for the metal. Note also that Henryco could not reproduce Jones' results, which casts further doubt on the thermite conclusions.
When and if Jones does good science, it will be published in a peer reviewed journal.

[edit on 3/20/2010 by pteridine]

reply to post by pteridine


The exotherm spike on the Jones test is actually steeper and stronger than the other tests.

Molten iron means degrees of 2800 degrees F. There's not much more to discuss.

You're grasping at straws now.

Yours,

THE AQUARIAN 1

reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1

Jones is the one who grasped at straws and has been found wanting. As I have explained several times, there is no evidence of 2800F. Iron containing does not mean iron so melting points are not known. Sources of the spheres are not known. Attempts to ignite the so called "highly engineered" chip with an oxy torch resulted in a single spark and a partial melt, which seems rather unenergetic for a "highly energetic" material.
Jones knows what he has to do and the order in which he has to do it. Until then, there is no evidence of thermite, thermate, nano thermite, or thermitic fuse material; there is only wishful thinking by those who have predetermined their conclusions.

reply to post by pteridine


The iron that melted was elemental. This melts at 2800 degrees F.

The end.

reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1

No one knows how the iron containing spheres formed, incuding Jones, or what temperatures were reached. Elemental iron can be formed at temperatures below its melting point.
I have explained how the science must happen. First Jones has to show reaction in the absence of air. If there is a reaction, he has to determine what the reaction is. Then he has to show that the material was designed for and would effect a demolition.
There is no evidence or rationale for thermite. Jones has yet to prove thermite.

Originally posted by pteridine
No one knows how the iron containing spheres formed

That is not a rebuttal to the fact that they formed and they ARE evidence of being melted to be shaped into spheres.

reply to post by bsbray11


No one knows the temperature of the DSC combustion or if heating in a carbonaceous matrix would form iron containing spheres or what their molecular compositions might be. Further, quantitation using EDAX is rife with error and may not be reflective of bulk analysis. There are too many unknowns because data was not collected and experiments were not properly designed.
Note also that when the chips were ignited with an oxy torch, they did not burn completely. Jones does not explain why such material is self extinguishing. He has far to go to show anything but paint.

reply to post by pteridine


This is getting ridiculous. The DSC was heated to 400 degrees Celsius. The exotherm reaction showed a steep spike in energy release, more than previous tests done with known nano-thermite. After the exotherm, the samples contained ELEMENTAL IRON RICH SPHERES, which can only be formed by heats upwards of 2800 degrees F, the melting point of elemental iron.

All your slip of the hand diversions, whether it's fly-ash, magnets, or your inability to accept reality, won't change that.

On top of that, elemental iron is not the only metal that was found in the dust samples. I think we've exhausted this discussion on the elemental iron rich spheres. Let's move to some of the other elements found in the WTC dust.

Pterry, let the audience know the other elements that were found in the dust samples tested by Steven Jones.

Yours,

THE AQUARIAN 1

Originally posted by pteridine
Reply to Aquarian.....
When and if Jones does good science, it will be published in a peer reviewed journal.

[edit on 3/20/2010 by pteridine]

How about NIST...when are they going to publish a peer review paper containing their HYPOTHESIS..and the data LEADING to the working HYPOTHESIS?

Jones is not the only one who found the sphere's...
The United States Geological Survey, in its "Particle Atlas of World Trade Center Dust Report," and RJ Lee Group, Inc., in its December 2003 WTC Dust Signature Report: Composition and Morphology, both document these once-molten drops of metal without explanation.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1

 

No one knows how the iron containing spheres formed

you seem to be diverting from the point.....

how are they formed during the NATURAL gravitational collapse, from steel that has been found to have the average temp from the impact area of 450F...with none reaching a critical compromising temp?

I have explained how the science must happen. First Jones has to show reaction in the absence of air. If there is a reaction, he has to determine what the reaction is. Then he has to show that the material was designed for and would effect a demolition.
There is no evidence or rationale for thermite. Jones has yet to prove thermite.

lol....you know...if NIST dd their job in the first place...maybe Jones would have gone in another direction...since it is up to NIST to use all avenues on the worst mass murder on American soil...which happens be proper procedure for testing for explosives and accelerants, any other time there is an explosive ejection of gasses and debris.....lack of noise is, NOT a reason, NOT to test...it even states that in NFPA 921: "Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations", which is the national fire code and is standard for fire and explosion investigation

standard for...EVERYONE......except......NIST?

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by bsbray11

 

No one knows the temperature of the DSC combustion or if heating in a carbonaceous matrix would form iron containing spheres

hey rocket scientist...how about figuring out...HOW they could be possibly formed...during the natural, symmetrical global collapse at a consistent near-free-fall speed....x2...with NO evidence of extreme temps recorded in the steel...lol..and LACK of testing is NOT an excuse...how many years did they have to investigate?

There are too many unknowns because data was not collected and experiments were not properly designed.
Note also that when the chips were ignited with an oxy torch, they did not burn completely. Jones does not explain why such material is self extinguishing. He has far to go to show anything but paint.

again...where is the NIST testing that was done on the steel....there is no ABSOLUTION, on an opinion

Originally posted by THE AQUARIAN 1
This is getting ridiculous. The DSC was heated to 400 degrees Celsius.

So are you saying 400 C is the melting point of elemental iron, pteridine?

Or will you finally admit the chemical reaction formed these spheres?

reply to post by bsbray11


The way a DSC works is that the temperature is ramped up in increments and heat flow is measured, usually relative to alumina in a reference cup. What happened at 400C was the onset of a reaction, most likely combustion of the organic binder. The flame temperature is not measured, only the heat flow and onset temperature.
If the spheres were formed in the DSC, a reaction certainly formed them. The question is what they are and what reaction formed them. How do we eliminate the possibility of combustion and move toward the proof of a thermitic reaction? I understand that this is really tough for you.
Think of an experiment that cuts to the heart of the matter, that eliminates uncertainty, that does not require any more complex analyses, and can use the instrumentation that already is available. Can you do it, BS? How about you, Aquarian? What experiment must Jones do next in his unending quest to prove thermite?

If you need help with this, let me know and I'll give you a hint.

reply to post by pteridine



1. All men are mortal
2. Socrates is a man
3. Socrates is mortal

Hi. I would just like to say that once again we find ourselves in the middle of a discussion of opinions.
The very "alarming" or "revealing" statement made in the OP, never materialized.
No "PROOF" was ever shown of "explosives".
It´s just what somebody thinks. It´s what a video "looks like", to somebody.
That´s not proof on anything.
I´m no expert on demolition, but through research into these matters I have learned a few things about the issue.
One of them is, that when buildings are demolished with explosives, they have to be "prepared". They are studied, lots of calculations have to be made, and lots of preparations have to be realized before the demolition comes.
Lots of workers have to work intensely inside the building accessing the structure to install the explosives to be used.
Lots and lots of cables have to be installedl, that usualy run great lenghts inside the building and come outside to where the demolition is going to be controlled from.
Some of the theories that have been discussed here actually present the preparation, and execution of this things like an easy work that could be done in just a few hours by a small group of experts.
Absolutely preposterous!!
And nobody noticed or saw the explosive charges?? No wires were found?? No detonators?? And no actual "EXPLOSIONS" as the collapse was happening??
So, forgive me but NO. NO PROOF OF BUILDING 7 BEING DEMOLISHED WITH EXPLOSIVES, has been shown, supported or backed by any evidence.
What I have found of more value in this thread has been the excelent explanations by Pteridine of how "unscientific" and "unsupported" is Steven Jones work.
Thank you for reading.

reply to post by THE AQUARIAN 1


You have confused "syllogism" with "experiment." It appears that science is not your strength.