Is it too late for the tiger? **Warning some images might be graphic**

reply to post by marsvolta



This is not about meat and the meat industry. The warning is because some people might find the images graphic even if they were of a cow or whatever. Some people do not like the sight of death and blood.

The difference though between the meat industries is that they animal is being used to keep people alive through food. There is not a risk of cows becoming extinct. I am not advocating the abuse of any animal nor am I saying the tiger is more important. I am bringing up the topic that tigers are on the risk of no longer being alive in the wild.

Raist

Well in putting this thread together I uncovered how many and how much animals are used in this medicine. I created a separate thread for that alone since I based this one on the fact that tigers are nearly extinct in the wild.

I have though found some more sources describing the money involved in the illegal trade of tigers and tiger parts.

In Taiwan in the 1990s, tiger penises and eyes sold for $1,700. Powdered tiger bones went for $500 a gram. Forelimbs brought in as much as $500 per pound.

factsanddetails.com...

Tigers being farmed is relatively new and is thought by a few that such a practices might save the wild tigers. If it helps or not is unknown to me. I could see it possibly helping to a degree but I am not sure this is the answer.

Some people in China have suggested raising tigers in captivity—tiger farming if you will—to supply the traditional medicine market, but conservationist argue that this wouldn't work because there is no way to tell the difference between bones from captive and wild animals.
Today, there are reportedly tiger farms in Manchuria. In December, 2002, one hundred rare Bengal tigers were donated by Thailand to China. There were reports in newspapers that the tigers were going to be raised like cattle for meat. One newspaper reported that a place called “Love World” on Hainan Island planned to offer tiger meats dishes while people watched tigers roaming around. Government officials said there was no truth to the reports.

If the farm populations could be kept high enough though the raising of tigers for such purposes might slow their eradication from the wild. As I said though I am not sure how much this will help. I am sure many would want a wild tiger or parts of a wild tiger because the sought after characteristic might be stronger in a wild one.

In TCM the bones of Panthera tigris have been used in wines, plasters, and manufactured medicines to treat arthritis and other joint ailments. There is little doubt that the trade in tiger bones for medicinal purposes was a major factor behind the tiger conservation crisis of the 1980s and ’90s. Today there are as few as 5,000 to 7,000 tigers in the wild; they are designated as endangered on the 2007 World Conservation Union Red List of Threatened Species. About 5,000 tigers are being raised on farms in China as well.

advocacy.britannica.com...

It has become obvious though that the money and greed involved is one of the bigger issues that keep the trade going.

Tiger: Another “walking drug store'', with almost every part used as powder, balms, pills or meat to be eaten. Penis is used as an aphrodisiac, bones for arthritis and muscular atrophy, claws against insomnia, fat to fight leprosy, and brain to clear pimples. A tiger on the black market can fetch up to US$10,000 (RM38,000).

thestar.com.my.../2004/3/30/features/7616210&sec=features

At such prices one could buy a new car or home with just a few animals. The illegal animal trade might actually be a close second in the cash one can get to the illegal drug trade. I am sure it is equal to or greater than the human trafficking trade taking place.

There are at least some signs that people and some governments have noticed the need for something to be done. But I wonder if it is too little too late. I think many are still turning a blind eye if enough money is handed their way.

Several Asian nations including China, Nepal, Japan, South Korea and Thailand have endorsed tough protections for tigers in the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). The measures commit the countries to enact laws banning the trade of tiger derivatives, preserve tiger habitat, and form a regional network to halt tiger trade. But lack of government resolve and corruption at the highest levels have thwarted enforcement of other wildlife agreements that the nations have signed.

www.tigersincrisis.com...

The greed of mankind is the destroyer of things that are beautiful and rare. That greed has and will continue to wipe out more species throughout the world. I pray that the tiger is not the next animal to be added to the list of total extinction.

A list of things parts of a tiger are used as a cure for is here.

Tiger claws: used as a sedative for insomnia
Teeth: used to treat fever
Fat: used to treat leprosy and rheumatism
Nose leather: used to treat superficial wounds such as bites
Tiger bone: used as an anti-inflammatory drug to treat rheumatism and arthritis, general weakness, headaches, stiffness or paralysis in lower back and legs and dysentery
Eyeballs: used to treat epilepsy and malaria
Tail: used to treat skin diseases
Bile: used to treat convulsions in children associated with meningitis
Whiskers: used to treat toothaches
Brain: used to treat laziness and pimples
Penis: used in love potions such as tiger soup, as an aphrodisiac
Dung or feces: used to treat boils, hemorrhoids and cure alcoholism

www.tigersincrisis.com...

It is doubtful this stuff actually does anything similar to a cure. It is more likely that it is just something in a person’s mind or some other change in their lifestyle at the time. We could though test s few such articles for any chemical or mix of chemicals that could cure illnesses.

I highly encourage people to check out this site in particular. It is full of information on the tiger and the tragedy it is facing.

www.tigersincrisis.com...

Raist

Here's a couple quick things to search for that may be of interest... as many of you know I'm working on my studies on zoology and international wildlife policy myself so I don't have much time...

The book "Tiger Bone and Rhino Horn"

Do some research on TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) and the obstacles international law is faced with regarding things in this area. AKA we believe in Western medicine, do we have a right to impose it on other cultures? You can say "Ours works, theirs doesn't" but how true is that really? These are for you to think about. Rhino horn has, in large quantities, proved to reduce fevers in mice. It's not just a placebo effect. Or it may not be. We don't know. But we can't tell them "This is wrong, it doesn't work, stop using it."

Look up the alternatives that are being used: The farming of animals such as alligators, the harvesting of horns from living rhinos (which grow back, they are made of keratin and hair)

Look up the bear bile industry, particularly sunbears but also other bears. Look at the fact that keeping one bear in captivity in a tiny cage with its gallbladder exposed and being drained of bile until it dies will save 40 bears in the wild from being killed outright for their gallbladders. Which is better?

Look at some of the alternatives- Cow bile instead of bear bile. Cow bones instead of tiger bones.

It is probably not only too late for the tiger but too late for most charismatic megafauna. I've spent the past two weeks of my life dissecting the ivory trade and international wildlife policy. I mean, I wish I had better news but, people can't compromise. And to be honest....

If you ever learn international wildlife policy you will learn that illegal poachers will always exist and illegal trade will always exist regardless of CITES, regardless of the IUCN, regardless of what we believe is morally correct.

There have been studies of the uses of TCM and the people who use it and many will go to whatever length to get these medicines even if it means the extinction of a species. Yes, in some cases there just needs to be a better system of educating the public. But China itself and Chinese markets are just massive black holes for these species.

It's not new... I mean, many subspecies of tiger are already extinct. We've hunted hundreds of species to extinction for food alone, or fear that the animals will ruin our crops or eat our livestock. That's why tigers struggle, because they do cause conflict... they're predators, carnivores, that's what they do. Tie in medicinal uses, cultural uses, trophy hunting, deforestation, and the increasing human population and it just looks bad.

I mean I clearly haven't giving up because this is what I'm learning to find possible solutions for. But it's hard. And it takes time. And money. And cooperation. And people will always, always, always break the law. The trade in endangered animal parts has more money in it than the drug trade. And half of you probably unknowingly own something that's been detrimental to a species, like something carved of ivory or bone or something made with the skin of a species listed in CITES.

Sorry for that cheery memo... college is going well. Good thread.

Look up bear bile farming. But not right after you eat.


PS There are under 150 Cross River Gorillas left in the wild. Say goodbye...

[edit on 2/10/2010 by ravenshadow13]

reply to post by ravenshadow13



Funny you should mention that, well not really funny just coincidence I guess.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I started that thread as a direct result of my findings about the tiger and my search about its decline.
I actually dip into the world of TCM but on a worldwide factor. I have discovered that the WHO believes that 80% or more of the world’s population use animals or parts of them for medicine.

As for the farming techniques, they lead a lot to be desired. While we can save many in a species it is not right to torture one animal until it dies. I am of course referring to the caged bears that most of the time had rusty metal catheters shoved into their gall bladders while being in a cage they cannot move in. Many have likely gone crazy because of this practice, which would be why they mutilate themselves.


As for tigers though they are farming them as well. If this will help I do not know. I am not only concerned for the overall species progression but also the treatment of those in captivity. It is not right to keep an animal in horrid conditions.

I am not saying you are advocating poor treatment either, just putting it out there.

Raist

reply to post by Raist


This is directed not only to you but to anyone interested and reading this:

If you can find a way to save the species in the wild and not farm these animals, good for you, I implore you to pass it along to the COP of CITES. The only other option is legal trade, which doesn't save the species either at this point because the population is completely unsustainable.

Alligator farming completely saved the population, it took pressure off of illegal poaching. If farming saves the species and bides time for TCM alternatives to be discovered, so be it.

It's like... I always wonder about the people who are in PETA or who are very animal-rights oriented but who don't care much about the WWF or wild populations. It's just... yes, hurting an animal is wrong. But in the broad spectrum if it can save 40 times the number of individuals in the wild, good.

TCM isn't going away. I mean, look at ivory. It's not even for medicine, it's for aesthetic purposes. Rhino horns are used to make dagger handles in Yemen as well as for TCM. The best thing to do is farm in order to save the species in the meantime and work with users of TCM to determine realistic alternatives. There ARE TCM practitioners who have amended the literature to allow for more sustainable substitutions.

Demand doesn't just go away. And really, it's not only TCM, it's deforestation, it's trophy hunting, it's all sorts of things.

I'm glad you're doing some research, I think you should take a multi-cultural and realistic perspective and then reassess the solutions you have in mind. Good luck with your new thread, unfortunately I have some work to get done and I only come on ATS every couple days or so during term.

It's really easy to think something is wrong because it is wrong in our culture. But right and wrong are very lucid concepts and yes, 80% of the world feels very differently about this topic. For an online forum it's easy to say "Wow, it probably doesn't even work, they should realize all the problems this causes and stop it." But in real life, when it's been happening for literally thousands of years, when it's already led to extinction, and when the best alternative does allow for the suffering of few to save the lives of many so that the populations in the wild can continue to exist because protected areas are still being poached and habitats are still being destroyed and the reintroduction of most wild animals from captivity fails, the answer isn't easy.

At all.

There is no easy answer. And even if there was one, good luck getting it to work. Conservationists are trying our best but it's important to be realistic and see the broad picture of the rest of the world, even when it's so much easier to know it's wrong to cause pain and suffering of an individual and the threat of extinction of an entire species for human benefit. It may be true, but it doesn't change anything.

[edit on 2/10/2010 by ravenshadow13]

reply to post by ravenshadow13


Thanks.

I realize it is not only TCM I even speak a little bit about that in the other thread. I mention that some people will spend large amounts of cash to eat something few others will ever eat and may never see again in any other form than a picture.


I also understand that the demand will not go away but there are chances if we start acting now we can lessen the demand some or at very least get the wild populations up again. I do not know where to begin with fixing things other than trying to educate people. Obviously I cannot do that as I personally do not have the resources to do that. My best recourse in the internet and places such as ATS for educating people.

I do not think it is fully cultural. I think a good deal of it takes place over greed. Looking at the money involved in the illegal animal trade. One tiger can go for $10,000 on the black market. Not to mention the cost of bear gall bladder bile. The prices for this stuff puts it right up there with the illegal drug trade.

A gram of bile from a bear gall bladder sells for more than a gram of gold or coc aine. Some of the bile is exported to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, where it sells for as much as $1,400 an ounce.

factsanddetails.com...

But that really goes with the other thread. I will say though unless the conditions are humane there is little sense in farming the animals and that goes for those raised for food in the U.S. I would rather the animals be gone than make them suffer. At least if they are gone their suffering is over. I do not want to see them go wither which is why I think we need education and rehabilitating conservation ideas.

It is true the demand will never go away but certainly things can be better. They can be better and the animals can be treated humanely. If the animals are gone the demand will change. As I said I would rather they be gone than suffer. Call it tough love for humanity but maybe that is what it is going to take before we realize what we are doing.

Raist

Since my other thread was a failure I figured I would add the similar information here. This post is a copy of the deleted thread.

The subject of animal abuse, torture, and road to extinction through the use of animal parts for medical purposes that is nothing more than speculation and superstition.



For many a century the lore of animals and the powers they or their body parts possess has been a part of human culture. Some animals have been and are breed in captive for harvesting of such parts while others are hunted and killed in the wild. The later hunting of them in the wild might have something to do with the thought that whatever character the animal or its body part possesses might be stronger.

This is not only a problem associated with the East or Asian countries in general. This is a practice that takes place around the world.

Parts from endangered animals are not just sold in Asia. A survey of pharmacies in Chinatowns in seven cities in Europe and North America found that many sold products made with parts of endangered animals. Bear bile, for example, is sold at pharmacies in Britain.

factsanddetails.com...

It is true not every bit of it is about medicine in general sometimes it is just about eating something that is rare or endangered. Some practices include watching the torture of one’s meal before eating it. It is said that it is to make it taste better. I speculate that it has something to do with something that was lost in the past. Again back to a characteristic that would be valued in a person being stronger after the torture. For the most part meat is not the reason for the killing of the animals. If it is there is most likely an underlying reason that does not include hunger.

South Koreans, Taiwanese and Chinese tourist go to restaurants in Thailand where, one environmentalist told AP in the 1990s, "The bear is tortured to death in front of the diners. They say it makes the meat taste better. The cost of the bear banquet is now about 9,000 U.S. dollars."

A typical bear farm has 32 bears kept in four rooms in an apartment building. A typical bear is kept in a 60-x-120-x-75centimeter cages. Some are kept in smaller cages that force them to lay spread eagle on the floor. Many of bears have teeth cracked from gnawing on the bars and paws covered with sores. Some are reportedly driven crazy by confinement and have terrible wounds from self-mutilation. Particularly cruel is the practice of leaving a bear in a snare, allowing to storm around and get angry to increase the amount of bile in its gallbladder.

The bile is used for a number of medical issues. There is little or no proof the bile actually works as a cure for any of the things it is taken for.

The biggest issue though in dealing with this trade is the greed and money involved.

A gram of bile from a bear gall bladder sells for more than a gram of gold or coc aine. Some of the bile is exported to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan, where it sells for as much as $1,400 an ounce.

That is the kind of money that causes many desperate people in hurting economies to cast aside moral issues just to feed themselves and their families. Of course it would only be the worlds richest that could afford such items. It is doubtful that many average people anywhere in the world would put forth such money for so little.

An example of the meat being eaten for more than just hunger, the real underlying issue is the chance to eat something few others ever have. The chance to taste something that could give you some sort of characteristic. This of course comes at a price and if you have enough money you can buy any food you choose.

But there are certain delicacies or culinary trends that are rarely encountered by most people, and the practice of dining on endangered animals is one of them.

www.askmen.com...

Again it is rarely the meat that is sought after without an underlying reason. More often than not a part of the animal is used while the rest is cast aside to rot.

Slow loris: Fur of this big-eyed, tree-dwelling primate is believed to accelerate healing of wounds. Extract from eyeballs is turned into love potion.
Civet cat: Anal scent gland used in potion to induce abortion. Used in Dragon, Tiger and Phoenix soup, for fighting arthritis, stimulating blood flow, and pepping up libido.

thestar.com.my.../2004/3/30/features/7616210&sec=features

As usual the money involved allows the greed of many to over ride their moral values if they have many to start with.

A tiger on the black market can fetch up to US$10,000 (RM38,000).

The thing that most fail to realize (including myself until today) is the sheer number of people using these “medicines”. It is completely worldwide. It is doubtful that there is not a part of the globe that is not touched by this form of animal slaughter and torture.

The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that as many as 80% of the world's more than six billion people rely primarily on animal and plant-based medicines.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

It is not that I assumed this was only an issue relating to Asia or the Asian culture, but more so that I did not realize the number of people who use such products in some form or another.

Already mentioned the practice has been around for centuries.

Traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) is a holistic approach to healthcare where patients are treated using natural plant, mineral and animal-based ingredients. TCM dates back at least 3,000 years and is an indispensable part of Chinese cultural heritage

Honestly though it has most probably been around since man first came to a superstitious conclusion.

www.worldwildlife.org...


With some hope and education though this practice might go away. It is not a bad thing for some cultural practices to vanish from humanity. Of course records can be kept of such practices so that people will always know and remember, but they could be ended.

Although the use of animal parts in TCM is deeply engrained and such practices are slow to change, dialogue between conservationists and TCM practitioners is underway. The Third International Congress of Traditional Medicine, held in Toronto in September 2006, is one example of this. Sponsored by the International Fund for Animal Welfare, the Congress was organized around the belief that the ecosystems on which TCM was built must be preserved.

advocacy.britannica.com...

Many species of plants and animals are used in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) to treat impotence (typically erectile dysfunction [ED]; Bensky & Gamble 1993). Some of these taxa are overharvested for their medicinal uses and are now threatened. Efforts to conserve many of these taxa have failed because the market forces driving their commercial collection or poaching remain in place. Shortly after Viagra appeared on the market in 1998, we suggested that Viagra has the potential to eliminate demand for animal sexual potency products (von Hippel & von Hippel 1998). We suggested that the East Asian market in animal potency products could soon fall victim to Viagra's success because Viagra is less expensive than many of these animal products (Viagra costs US$ 8–10 per pill in the countries in which it is legalized) and Viagra's effectiveness is demonstrated (Giuliano et al. 1997; Morales et al. 1998; Sadovsky et al. 2001) rather than hoped for.

journals.cambridge.org...;jsessionid=2DEBC5C990C93D15227D9F7B49D66820.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=130167


Will it ever end completely? It is doubtful really. But it could be limited and become a rare practice. If it were to be limited or rare the number of animals saved from the point of extinction could increase.

Raist

reply to post by Raist


Out of the $10,000 for a tiger, most of the money does not go to the poacher, it goes to middle men. Many of these middle men have been pursued by the law and recently a number of them have been jailed, which is good. Only a small portion of that money goes to the poacher, and it's not about greed as much as it's about needing to provide for your family. Most poachers are from very low income areas. Many of the programs designed to mediate the tiger trade include job positions as protectors of these species which pay money, designed to appeal to the local public in lieu of poaching for income.

And that's seemed to be working out alright in some areas.

well ... for all the people that think they are doing something cool, to care about animals and abuses ... well, let me tell you something: this is done every day, every second to humans, even to kids ... so, deny ignorance, we have bigger problems right now

yes, its sad and all but really, humans are dying and nobody gives a $%, most of the people that care about something, they care about animals, I mean ... lets deny ignorance please

reply to post by Faiol


If you have taken the time to read many of my posts on ATS you would understand that I do care for humans as well. You could have found that out a little if reading my posts within this thread alone.

I do care for humans. I care that children are harmed every day, but I also care that animals are harmed daily. It is a caring for the innocent and defenseless stance that I have.

If you do not care about the animals as much as humans there was no need to post in the thread stating that stance. All you simply needed to do was ignore the thread and move on.

As for the topic though Is it too late for the tigers, as well as the use of animals as medicine.

Raist

reply to post by ravenshadow13


I understand that.

But it is the middle man and the person wanting the product that drives the demand. It is their greed (the root cause) that I am speaking about. In my posts I cover the amount of money that is obtained by the poacher/hunter/farmer is enough to drive morals away from many simply to feed their family. The morals issue would be treating a living creature in such a horrible way.

I understand the need to feed a family. As I have said in other posts if it was only a food source thing it would not be as bad. But it is more it is waste and killing just to kill. That is the spot in all of this that bothers me most.

Most of my references have been in relation to the root cause of the demand. Those with the money to pay the price are the root cause. It is their greed that drives the demand. If their demand was drugs for instance those poachers/hunters/farmers would be finding/making drugs for them.

We need to look at the root cause not simply those involved in the immediate actions.

Raist

South Koreans, Taiwanese and Chinese tourist go to restaurants in Thailand where, one environmentalist told AP in the 1990s, "The bear is tortured to death in front of the diners. They say it makes the meat taste better. The cost of the bear banquet is now about 9,000 U.S. dollars.

Yeah, I know I am the big evil ugly American, but this sort of thing reinforces my belief in the superiority of my people over these medieval pieces of #. And yes, that is the definition of racism. So be it. The truth hurts.

Here's an idea. We have the CIA do something useful for a change, and we surreptitiously poison the supply of traditional Asian medicines based on Tiger parts. That way we can kill off the "human" animals who are destroying our planet. Similar programs could be enacted for the bear or for whatever animal is subject to cruelty to please humans. And we should do it in all cases, not just the Asian ones, bacause any person, regardless of race, who engages in such practices, deserves to die.

reply to post by Grumble


Please do not turn my thread into hate mongering.

Raist