The Secessionist Campaign for the Republic of Vermont

Kudos to them!

Personally looking forward to migrate to the free Republic of Vermont, if they eventually succeed!

Originally posted by Phlynx

Vermont is a beautiful place too.

Honestly, I think smaller countries prosper more than bigger countries.

America would prosper if it's states where more like countries, and where given more state rights.

Part of me wants to cheer on the Vermont secession.

The other part of me remembers that we already had this War and the South lost...

The Civil War was about state rights vs. federal rights. Sadly the CSA chose the morally reprehensible act of slavery as individual state rights, but the huge beast of big government's foundation was built on Lincolns defeat of the South.

The absolute worse part is that our education system teaches that the Civil War was simply about slavery and not how it turned the states vs. federal rights upside down.

yes all nice talk and all and even possibly a nice attempt but im pretty positive nothing will come of this


secession wont happen in our life times, the only way change will happen is if the american people wake up on a national level and demand true change without falling for some ridiculous political campaign with empty promises by some random pretend casanova with smooth talking capabilities

a reminder for everyone: only 1/3rd of americans in the colonies at the time of revolution actually supported the revolution. (the other thirds being loyalists to Britain and nuetral)

reply to post by hangedman13


Federal power? I believe you are assigning power to an entity that has no power outside of Washington DC proper, and has no power at all unless We the People give it to them. The States can actually order the Federals out of their State.

Does anyone for one second think about he economic prospects of such a frivolous and well...stupid political action such as this?

Just think for a moment, what does Vermont have? Or for that matter, any state unto itself, should it choose to leave the union, how will they fare?

Business will pull out and those states will be left to redesign their gdp.

Vermont has 70% of their total exports being IBM computer parts. IBM will not stay in a state that has seceded.

In Canada, when the province of Quebec sought separation through referendum in 1981, they lost 60+% of all businesses and the province is still experiencing economic penalties from that and it is 30 years later.

Vermont has little in the way of natural resources that wouldn't be gone in the short term if it were to be an independent country.

you can't eat your politics. Politics doesn't feed a family of four. Secession in an established republic of member states without good reason other than ideological nonsense fed to your by what amounts to fools is folly of th highest order.

why do people even entertain these elaborate and ridiculous notions?

This is why I love ATS. It's great to see news like this. You won't see this on CNN, MSNBC, Fox, NBC, ABC, [Insert Jewish Owned Media Company here].

Now we all know that nothing will ever come of this. This movement will die down just like all the other ones. But at least we heard of an idea set in motion by a few individuals in Vermont. Good stuff. Thanks for posting.

Originally posted by Renegade Bison
actually if people hear of vermont wishing to peacefully leave the usa and set up such nice laws and the us government sends in the troops what you would soon find is the government probably *issing off the whole american population. i expect very few people would say that what vermont wants is unacceptable and to squash their hopes through military force would only be to probably incite a civil war across the whole country. why would people sit back and let the us government tell them that their state has no right for independence? especially as a state which is not promoting violence against america and is doing exactly the opposite.

and i don't see what relevance vermont leaving the usa would have on the un or america's placement in it.

that's why of all the things the government could do to stop it, putting troops into vermont would be one of the least advisable things they could do. they'd have to deal with the wrath of the whole country not just one state and i can't see why they would want that. not to say that they wouldn't try and forcibly stop the revolution, but that force would be through political manouvreing and talking, not aggressively surrounding a peaceful people with military troops. even the us government surely wouldn't be that stupid

They don't need to because most of the military bases in VT would do the job, especially the National Guard. However, the secession would be an extremely expensive and complex thing to pull off.

For one thing, if the state secede, what do you think the flag of the USA is going to look like? Most likely with blacked out stars representing the states. And chances are Russia would like this to happen as 'payback' to what happened to their Soviet Union in the 1990s.

The Secessionist movement is too small to be taken seriously.

Methinks I'll be doing a little house-hunting in the fine state of Vermont if this initiative passes. Good for them! It is my most humble opinion that whole of the US Federal government whould be flushed straight down the toilet and the full authority of governance restored to the individual states - as was initially intended by the founding fathers.

Canada will humbly open its borders to Vermont refugees if the US government terrorists decide to not respect a democratic right thats on the constitution. With Canada's enormous military thats roughly just smaller than that of Vermont's police force, we got your back!



[edit on 1-2-2010 by disfugured]

Originally posted by djusdjus
Does anyone for one second think about he economic prospects of such a frivolous and well...stupid political action such as this?

I beg to differ.

Is it stupid to leave a marriage when you are being abused?

Is it stupid to back out of a contract, when the other party is not fulfilling its end of the deal?

Just think for a moment, what does Vermont have?

Citizen's of the state of Vermont, who have brains and ingenuity.

Or for that matter, any state unto itself, should it choose to leave the union, how will they fare?

I was waiting for this.

Read it and weep

Business will pull out and those states will be left to redesign their gdp.

Some, not all. And if the people strive, they can replace what was lost. It will not be instantaneous. It will take a long while, and a lot of hard work.

Vermont has 70% of their total exports being IBM computer parts. IBM will not stay in a state that has seceded.

And you know this how?

In Canada, when the province of Quebec sought separation through referendum in 1981, they lost 60+% of all businesses and the province is still experiencing economic penalties from that and it is 30 years later.

Canada + France . . . need I say more?

But seriously. It goes on a case by case basis. You have no idea what COULD have happened if Quebec actually succeeded in seceding. Who is to say that Quebec would not have got back on its feet later on down the road?

The United States did not begin its life as a Super Power. It began its life as a third world country. It took the US 200+ years to get where they are at today.

Vermont has little in the way of natural resources that wouldn't be gone in the short term if it were to be an independent country.

I disagree. They have enough resources for their population. Plus, you really think that they are going to be on their own?

you can't eat your politics. Politics doesn't feed a family of four.

I can't eat the fed, and they do not feed my family either.

Secession in an established republic of member states without good reason other than ideological nonsense fed to your by what amounts to fools is folly of th highest order.

So those who want a contract to be honored are fools.

Go tell an abused wife that she is a fool as well.

See where that gets you.

why do people even entertain these elaborate and ridiculous notions?

Does this mean things would be cheaper if a state suceeds from the union? Would it have less taxes? I am all for it if it makes it easier for the people, gives them more options and freedom. I know if Missouri tried to do that it would be awkward since it is in the middle of the country. Would you need a passport to go to the different states? How would this really work. I think if this were to happen the United States would fall apart.If one state does it then all the others would want to one by one.

Originally posted by Phlynx


Vermont is a beautiful place too.

Honestly, I think smaller countries prosper more than bigger countries.

America would prosper if it's states where more like countries, and where given more state rights.

The Founders wanted the balance of power to reside with the states and the U.S. Constitution reflects that point. However, the progressives have done everything they could to wipe their asses with our founding documents because those documents serve the purpose of limiting the power of the federal government. The more power and influence the progressive cancer gets, the worse things become in our beloved nation. The only solution to the progressive cancer is to rain total destruction upon them!

reply to post by LiquidMirage

How very tolerant of you to advocate freedom like that. And lumping "the founders" into one group of like-thinking individuals is rather silly. Some supported more independent states, some supported a strong federal government. The Constitution is a decent compromise between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

Originally posted by DocEmrick
This is why I love ATS. It's great to see news like this. You won't see this on CNN, MSNBC, Fox, NBC, ABC, [Insert Jewish Owned Media Company here].

Funny, since the OP linked to TIME Magazine...

Originally posted by ts117The absolute worse part is that our education system teaches that the Civil War was simply about slavery and not how it turned the states vs. federal rights upside down.

Having recently gone through the educational system, I can tell you that we were pretty well educated on the fact that States' Rights issues, beginning as early as the 1820s, led to the Civil War. Slavery was the issue over which the States and Federal Government clashed.

reply to post by sr_robert1


Thank you.

Most people do not realize a secession is more than signing a piece of paper.

It takes actual backbone, blood, guts, and guns to back that up.

History repeats itself, all the time, and this is just another facet of history beginning the repetitious behavior of an Ouroboros, and the snake swallows it's own tail.

Originally posted by Sanctum1972
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

To SpartanKingLeonidas,

I'm from Vermont and have been living here for five years now from the midwest, originally. I'm quite aware of the Secessionist issues in this state that's been going around, but that's not to say it will definitely happen.

What you are probably forgetting is that there are military bases right here in VT, especially the National Guard Air Force in Burlington, VT that's going to possibly receive F-35s on their base very soon. The article can be seen here:

www.burlingtonfreepress.com...

There's a base on Plattsburgh, NY right across from the state as well.

I do realize Vermont's secession may never happen, I was speaking from the pre-secession standpoint.

I've never forgotten that Vermont has National Guard and other selected military bases.

For the most part I think the majority of this is saber-rattling, and I've said so.

If it were serious then those jets would not be still going to Vermont, now would they?

Originally posted by Sanctum1972
Now, I want you to think about this. IF this state attempts to secede, what do you think will happen? Will the DC's military have to take on Vermont's military? Or will the elected governor evict all military bases out, risking the possibility that Vermont citizens will have to fend for themselves? Or will D.C. tell all military bases to pull out and be relocated?

I can tell you that Vermont would have to be this incredibly stupid to try to militarily secede. After all, those hillbillies (no offense to those who are) with 4 wheel drive trucks or anything of that sort, and a shotgun are not going to survive against a strafing F-35, no matter how well experienced they may be in their hunting days. Or even a UAV which can fly above the green mountains for hours.

Now, if they want to secede, they better do it in an intelligent manner and chances are they could lose a lot of economical support from the big corporations and social security will be completely pulled out (most likely) that could enrage every retired or disabled Vermonter.

I agree with what you said just remember I was speaking in generalized terms and about what it takes, prior to actual action, not that it was or was not happening.

Originally posted by Sanctum1972
So do you think the elected Secessionist's reign will last that long for creating those consequences? I don't think so. If Vermont secedes, will it become a terrorist's haven for those trying to sneak into our country? Also, even more maddening is the possibility is that Vermont will be such a small, small country unto itself, that, it may require citizens to use passports to fly or drive back into the United States, and vice versa.

This is something that should not be taken lightly. I don't think it's wise to secede unless they have the necessary support to survive on its own economically and militarily.

If Vermont secedes, it may give the TPTB the legit excuse to create a 'situation' for a red flag operation. After all, if Vermont secedes, people are going to have to adjust their flight routes if they want to do business in Montreal/Quebec. They would have to put several passport stations in each freeway entry to, well, check the passports to VT or Montreal and back.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by Sanctum1972]

I personally think regardless if it happens or not, or whether Texas secedes or not, the Federal Government will take the stance that anyone wishing to secede, or commit to a revolution, will drag out the scary boogeyman called "terrorism".

Each and every one of those people willing to fight this sort of fight will be deemed terrorists.

Under "National Emergency", Martial Law will be declared and anyone who resists will be shot on sight.

Now, while I abhor the idea of violence, because I've seen enough of it in my lifetime to have a desire to never see it again, I know the Art of War, using my knowledge of it to turn it into the Art of Peace, because peace is much more difficult to fight for without it turning into war, and personally I prefer peace.

I am merely waiting for Vermont or Texas or any other state, to quit saber-rattling, complaining, whining, or bitching, and actually do something, not because I want to see violence happen, but because I will believe their attempt at secession when I actually see anyone try for it, and succeed at seceding.

Who am I rooting for when and if this happens?

Neither side.

Not because I do not want freedom for those who feel they are oppressed, nor because I back the Hegemonic rule of the Federal Government, but because I see both sides of the coin, that having two choices is silly, because everyone forgets the third side of the coin, the serrated edge that cuts like a knife.

In other words, crap or get off the pot, because you're either going to secede, or not.

The middle ground of speaking about it, is closing down fast, through many different sources from new telecommunications laws where warrants are no longer necessary, to new "terrorism" laws which are both vague and innocuous intentionally.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Well, it seems that Vermont is talking about secession from the Union, and so is Texas.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

ok, I am just using this line as a demonstration of how absurdity and disinfo is spread on this here interwebz.

If me and my neighbor stand out in sunny ole florida and stand together saying this group, named the florida freedom association, will seek political power to sesceed from the union and will declare war on the US, its not Florida that is talking about this...its about a group...its really about 2 people whom are just playing silly farks in front of some right wing "news
source for a laugh...right wingie does its tool thing and voila...you got someone posting of how Florida is on the cusp of leaving the US.

Sorry, a few dozen people wearing funny hats and a secret handshake will not be having their states leave the union...but hey...if you really really dont like it here...there is no gun against your head making you stay...I am sure there are plenty of conservative countrys out there that would welcome you...like erm...iran perhaps?

I have to wonder at your entire post because there are many people from Vermont and Texas speaking about this very topic, so either you're missing their comments, or specifically attacking mine.

Does not matter to me one ounce which it is either because I know what I'm talking about.

Do you know what you're talking about?

Have you actually read about newspaper articles where Vermont is raising cash through selling t-shirts for their secessions, or how about the links posted within this thread themselves, by the original poster, or other people.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Sorry, a few dozen people wearing funny hats and a secret handshake will not be having their states leave the union...but hey...if you really really dont like it here...there is no gun against your head making you stay...I am sure there are plenty of conservative countrys out there that would welcome you...like erm...iran perhaps?

I have to laugh at the above particular statement you made for several reasons.

You are correct, a few dozen people, cannot a secession make, as for the funny hats and secret handshakes, well those show your mentality, and your thoughts.

I have to wonder at why you think I would want to leave America?

I've stated I live in neither Vermont or Texas, or did you miss that, perhaps?

No, no gun against my head to stay, just as there is no gun to my head to leave.

What on Earth makes you think I am Conservative?

I am not a Liberal either, before you sway the other way, like a pirate hanging himself.

I am neither a Republican, nor a Democrat, neither Conservative, nor a Liberal.

I am a registered Independent, red-blooded citizen of America, who happens to know history, war, politics, and a few other skills, which I post about all the time.

I've missed where I ever stated I am either for or against Vermont and Texas seceding.

Maybe you should go back and re-read everything I had to say instead of selecting one sentence.

I am here on ATS to "Deny Ignorance", and I thank you for assisting me in that.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


I disagree with you because I see Texas's chances at seceding more than Vermont, because Texan's are known to be bull-headed, strong-minded, and focused when they get motivated.

Remember the Alamo.

Now, while I realize this thread is about Vermont, and I mentioned Texas originally, I will take a small leeway with knowing the original poster's thoughts, and speak a tad about Texas.

Texas has a huge border along the Rio Grande, this being almost half of the entire American/Mexican border, a larger area to not only protect from people trying to come in, but as well a great place for future secessionists to try going into Mexico to evade the Federal Government, if they chose to try for guerrilla tactics.

On top of this the Coyote's, smugglers who bring illegal aliens into America, would be one of the first allies those seceding would pick out to help their cause.

Now, while I respect the fact that either state, Vermont, or Texas wants to try to secede, I still say good luck, because they will need it and it will be a bloody battle indeed.

Back on track with the thread and Vermont trying to secede.

I still see and hear a lot of saber-rattling, and until I actually see action, my thoughts on it are clear.

Put up, or shut up.

That was not directed at any person within this thread, nor the people of either Vermont or Texas, and definitely not you, Pellovoison.

It was a generalized comment about the political threat, whether benign, or malevolent of seceding.

While I see a secession as a viable means, hearing a lot of jabberjawing, makes no actions seen.

I still give Texas a better chance then Vermont.

[edit on 1-2-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by djusdjus
Does anyone for one second think about he economic prospects of such a frivolous and well...stupid political action such as this?

I beg to differ.

Is it stupid to leave a marriage when you are being abused?

Is it stupid to back out of a contract, when the other party is not fulfilling its end of the deal?

Just think for a moment, what does Vermont have?

Citizen's of the state of Vermont, who have brains and ingenuity.

Or for that matter, any state unto itself, should it choose to leave the union, how will they fare?

I was waiting for this.

Read it and weep

Business will pull out and those states will be left to redesign their gdp.

Some, not all. And if the people strive, they can replace what was lost. It will not be instantaneous. It will take a long while, and a lot of hard work.

Vermont has 70% of their total exports being IBM computer parts. IBM will not stay in a state that has seceded.

And you know this how?

In Canada, when the province of Quebec sought separation through referendum in 1981, they lost 60+% of all businesses and the province is still experiencing economic penalties from that and it is 30 years later.

Canada + France . . . need I say more?

But seriously. It goes on a case by case basis. You have no idea what COULD have happened if Quebec actually succeeded in seceding. Who is to say that Quebec would not have got back on its feet later on down the road?

The United States did not begin its life as a Super Power. It began its life as a third world country. It took the US 200+ years to get where they are at today.

Vermont has little in the way of natural resources that wouldn't be gone in the short term if it were to be an independent country.

I disagree. They have enough resources for their population. Plus, you really think that they are going to be on their own?

you can't eat your politics. Politics doesn't feed a family of four.

I can't eat the fed, and they do not feed my family either.

Secession in an established republic of member states without good reason other than ideological nonsense fed to your by what amounts to fools is folly of th highest order.

So those who want a contract to be honored are fools.

Go tell an abused wife that she is a fool as well.

See where that gets you.

why do people even entertain these elaborate and ridiculous notions?

a)Vermont is a state and the problem is more complex than spousal abuse.

b) If not for France you wouldn't have ANY united States. So, try not to look down your nose when looking at Canada and France.

c) Not sure how contract law figures into it, but Vermont follows under the bill of rights and the constitution like anyone else, not sure where it's being violated on their case.

d)citizens can have all the brains and ingenuity in teh world, if they don't have economic co-operation and trust, they have dirt like all the other countries that have people in them that are ingenious and hard working but still failing because their leaders and government isn't trusted.

e) I know what vermont's major exports are because Vermont publishes that information, ergo the 70% of it's exports are IBM parts.

f) i actually can tell you what would happen based on historical data and I can also tell you that our province of Quebec would've been on it's knees for years. YOu don't honestly think they would be allowe dthe land area of quebec do you?

g) I don't think you think with your head enough and probably emotionalize and personalize any issue like this.

Vermont, Texas, it doesn't matter. The constitutional obligations are 100% met, the Bill of rights is adhered to, they have no grounds for secession in a legal sense and I promise you I am right about that.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
I am from Texas, and I have signed the petition in my sig to bring secession before the people of Texas. The petition has a couple million signatures, and most are NOT from the website. The petition and all sigs are supposed to be brought to Austin on 01/11/11.

If/when secession turns violent in Texas, we can handle ourselves. We have done it once. If you are not a Texan, I promise you, you do not know what it is to be Texan. You do not know the Texas spirit.

As for Vermont . . . I have sent donations to their secession movement. If it turns violent, I know that many a Texan will run up there and lend a body to help.

I will be interested to hear about this making it to Austin.

I wonder if a donation to a state trying to secede is tax deductible.

I'm not a Texan but I know plenty of them.

I love the history of Texas too from its inception, to the Alamo, to Dealey Plaza, and everything in between.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
I do not think it will turn violent if any state secedes. The fed can't afford that right now, with Irag/Afghanistan going on, and Iran looming on the horizon. Not only that, but it would piss off the American populace too much, not to mention the other nations of the world. At the very least, I believe that Russia would lend a hand.

I also think that the first state to go will create a domino effect. Montana, Hawaii, Vermont, Tennessee, South Carolina, Texas, and Alaska have major secessionist movements. Some other states have smaller movements, but they are there.


Just my thoughts.

One would hope it does not turn violent but with our troops being tied up in Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon to be Iran, I see the "Private Miltiary Contractors" and possibly the United Nations sending in troops as being the means that our Federal Government would take in order to resolve this situation.

Personally, I see the "Swine Flu" nonsense as a test platform.

Yes, a domino effect might happen, but do not forget that the telecommunications industry has been in bed with the Federal Government since Ma Bell shimmied up her petticoats back in WWII.

If nothing else, remember the Alamo.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

Well, it seems that Vermont is talking about secession from the Union, and so is Texas.

Nah.

Or, rather, it's a small minority who are talking about it. The Secessionist movement here in Texas has been active since the founding of Texas. It hasn't impacted Texas politics, although they tried to make quite the fuss in 1984-1990 and in 1995 a group called "The Republic of Texas" which supposedly had over 40,000 active supporters, came together and instated their own provisional government.

Their shenanigans (kidnapping, court battles, assassination threats and lists, etc) kept the public entertained. Eventually they splintered (the usual fate of these groups) over internal policies. I understand that they're back again but they're making even less of a splash than they did in 1995.

Many other states have had secessionist movements that ended up with the same results. I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that human nature will repeat itself in Vermont.

I've known about how Texas deals with Texas for a very long time.

Texan history was one of my favorite history subjects when it came to America.

If kidnappings, court battles, and assassination threats are not influencing of Texan politics, I am afraid to ask your opinion of the Lee Harvey Oswald nonsense and J.F.K.

L.H.O. was a patsy, an outsider, an alleged Communist sympathizer.

Texan's hate outsiders, which is one reason George W. Bush was a hard sell for President, being he was born in Connecticut, and not Texas, and was a lazy S.O.B., and all around skirt-chasing, coke-snorting rabblerouser, until he moved to his Crawford Ranch, Texas would not accept him as one of theirs, being a Bush child or not.

The movie W. left out his coc aine habit for alcohol only.

Byrd, as for your assessment of the past secessionist movements, Texas, or otherwise, yes I can see that internal policies may have been a large part of why they did not succeed at seceding, but let us not forget when the Federal Government hears of events taking place they send in Agent Provocateurs.

And personally I can see how Texan's might not want outsiders, but I see the threat of Agent Provocateurs being used by both sides, the side trying to rule Texas using outsiders, and the side trying to force a change, using outsiders.

That is how a coup happens, you use the people who are not local, as cannon fodder.

Once they are used up is when both sides really begin to fight, secession, coup, or war.

Let us hope that no more terrorist events or false-flag operations happen.

Originally posted by djusdjus
Does anyone for one second think about he economic prospects of such a frivolous and well...stupid political action such as this?

Just think for a moment, what does Vermont have? Or for that matter, any state unto itself, should it choose to leave the union, how will they fare?

That was one of my many quibbles with the Republic of Texas. They seemed to have two agendas: "We don't need no steenking Federal Income Tax or Feds" and "Guns for everyone!" If memory serves there was also a side dish of "English Only" and "Throw the Furriners out at th' Borderz!"

They had no plan for dealing with things like the state municipal retirement system, Social Security (I'll be eligible for SS within 8 years -- if Texas secedes does my money just end up in the pockets of the US government? I will also get a pension from the State Municipal system -- will I get paid in money I can use or will it go away or will I be paid in currency that no other state will take?), dealing with the handicapped, aid to the poor, fixing the roads (part of the Bush Tollway in Dallas buckled today... and it's only 9 years old), dealing with the transit system, controlling air pollution (Governor Rick Perry seems to feel that pollution is good for the economy), water treaties (we'd have to renegotiate with Mexico over the Rio Grande and with Oklahoma and Louisiana for the Red River), ensuring a stable money and banking system (Texas has been through this in the early days of the Republic, where the Texas dollar dropped to a value of 10 cents in the surrounding states and some towns and businesses started printing their own money), deciding WHO is a "legal citizen" (I wasn't born here and the only birth certificate there is for me is a "short form" like Obama's. Will they declare me a non-citizen or admit me because I'm married to a 5th generation Texan? And what about my former coworker, Jose Alvarado, whose family has been here for 3 generations?), accreditation of schools and universities, certifying teachers, certifying physicians, municipal powers, border crossings (it's no fun getting in or out of Canada. It'd be less fun for Texas and I bet trucks would just go through Oklahoma instead of getting passport sand all), and so on and so forth.

And what economic support can we get if another hurricane hits?

And then there's negotiating trade agreements with the rest of the world and with the states on our borders.

They seemed to have no plan for a lot of the common issues and seemed to boil it all down to the 2nd Amendment and Federal income tax. Since none of the family (including my husband's side) owns or wants guns and they never addressed any practical plans for all of the above and more, their call for leaving the union wasn't very compelling. The coworkers with whom I talked about this felt the same way.