This is for all Christians

First I would like to say that I am agnostic not atheist, raised a christian home though.

I have a big question about God. If God is the alpha and the omega, the begining and the end, all knowing and all seeing. God is everywhere both liner and non linier. God is supposed to know that I would writting this before he even created the heavens and earth.

Here are some verses that show the God know what we are going to do.

John 3:20
1in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps."

Ps 139.13, 139.16
For You created my inmost being. You knit me together in my mother's womb... Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.

So if God does know everything that we are going to do, then how can he punish us for something that we had no choice in doing? Why are we threated with hell if we disobey him, but by the bibles own words he already knew who was going to disoby him and how.

god knowing a decision we will make doesnt change the fact that we made and are responsible for that decision.

putting aside the fact that hellfire is not biblically supported

Originally posted by miriam0566
god knowing a decision we will make doesnt change the fact that we made and are responsible for that decision.

putting aside the fact that hellfire is not biblically supported

You'd make a Baptist turn red and foam at the mouth with that statement. Lol.

There is a concept of Universal Salvation though. I don't think a just God would punish people for all eternity, maybe just temporarily for purification.

Originally posted by miriam0566
god knowing a decision we will make doesnt change the fact that we made and are responsible for that decision.

putting aside the fact that hellfire is not biblically supported

How can we be held responsible for a "choice" that was no choice at all. If it is foreknown what choice we make then then that absolves us of any guilt. We may think we have choice but we really dont. God know every choice we will be presented with, he knows which choice we will choose and he knows the outcome of all the choices. Basiclly God laid out the rules knowing who would pass and who would fail. He created us like that. How is that fair. So the way I see it either God is not as powerful as the bible states or we have no choice in what we do but yet we are still punished when we do wrong.

Originally posted by jmotley

Originally posted by miriam0566
god knowing a decision we will make doesnt change the fact that we made and are responsible for that decision.

putting aside the fact that hellfire is not biblically supported

How can we be held responsible for a "choice" that was no choice at all. If it is foreknown what choice we make then then that absolves us of any guilt. We may think we have choice but we really dont. God know every choice we will be presented with, he knows which choice we will choose and he knows the outcome of all the choices. Basiclly God laid out the rules knowing who would pass and who would fail. He created us like that. How is that fair. So the way I see it either God is not as powerful as the bible states or we have no choice in what we do but yet we are still punished when we do wrong.

You're are assuming the Bible is true. What if it's wrong? Maybe the Qur'an is true, or the Bhagavad Gita, Avesta, Tao Teh Ching, Guru Granth Sahab, etc.

Maybe God doesn't punish anyone and we are all absorbed back into him when we die. Or maybe God is indifferent about us.

Originally posted by TinFoilHatMan55

You're are assuming the Bible is true. What if it's wrong? Maybe the Qur'an is true, or the Bhagavad Gita, Avesta, Tao Teh Ching, Guru Granth Sahab, etc.

Maybe God doesn't punish anyone and we are all absorbed back into him when we die. Or maybe God is indifferent about us.

For this thread i decided to use Cathosism. But correct me if Im wrong but the big three all same the same thing God, Allah, Yahweh is omnipotent. Personally I think they are one and the same.

That would be correct. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam worship the same deity. The deity of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

Though Judaism and Islam don't worship Jesus. Jews reject him, Muslims accept him as a prophet only.

Judaism and Islam have a lot in common in that they both reject the Trinity and worship God alone.

Catholicism is pretty wonky, I don't see why Saints need to make pleas for a person when the person can pray to God directly.

Originally posted by TinFoilHatMan55
There is a concept of Universal Salvation though. I don't think a just God would punish people for all eternity, maybe just temporarily for purification.

universal salvation is not supported by the bible.

universal salvation assumes that everyone will sooner or later "learn" and its a nice "PC" way of saying everyone will be ok

deut 30:[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

notice it doesnt say heaven or hell. for adam's punishment, he was condemned to death (nonexistence)

it must be noted that there is a fundamental difference between "discipline" and "punishment"

discipline is to help a person learn. it assumes that the person is willing to learn and adjust their attitude. god, at times has used discipline to help people to see that his way is better. jonah was disciplined, not punished. 1. he refused to carry out his commission. 2. he had the wrong attitude toward ninevah's repentance.

punishment is used when discipline is not possible. when someone's mind is made up and they have chosen rebellion from god. they do things their way without consideration for morality.

if god is the creator then logically he has the write to set these standards. he also has the right to determine who is allowed to exist in his universe. the same way a landlord has the right to determine who lives in his house

Originally posted by jmotley
How can we be held responsible for a "choice" that was no choice at all. If it is foreknown what choice we make then then that absolves us of any guilt.

how does it absolve us of guilt?

ever read the parable of the prodigal son?

the son asked for his inheritance and ran off and squandered it. the father in all likelihood knew that the son was about to do something foolish.

any father in this situation would ask if not beg their son to reconsider. and in all likelihood the son did not listen.

when the son went off and life got hard, was it the father's fault or the son's?

We may think we have choice but we really dont.

that is an assumption. you are concluding that because god knows the decision that we will make that the decision is not ours.

knowing a decision and actually making a decision are 2 different things.

Basiclly God laid out the rules knowing who would pass and who would fail. He created us like that. How is that fair.

if your conclusions were true, then your right, it wouldnt be fair. but they are not.

its like saying "ive been born with a tendency towards bad behavior so im destined to be a bad guy". no, you can decide not to do bad things. just because god knows which direction your going to take doesnt mean you a destined to one path or another. it also doesnt mean that god is responsible for your decision.



So the way I see it either God is not as powerful as the bible states or we have no choice in what we do but yet we are still punished when we do wrong.